[Suggestion] Charge reflect should affect impact damage

[(Steelclaw)]

Some large stuff has, IMO, way too easy a time charging through bracing spears and halberds at the moment. Katarin's new sled is the popular talking point, but a number of things have been able to do it for a while, mostly high-mass single entities.

I'm not sure if the code would permit it, but it would be great if impact damage/collison attacks were reflected by charge reflect, so that when cavalry/monsters/chariots/ogres charge the front face of a bracing squad of halberds, the halberds might be knocked down/away, but the charging unit also gets maimed.

I dunno, I just feel like anti-large infantry are in a bit of a weak place right now, and this would be a fun way to buff them without making them OP or cavalry/chariots underpowered again.

[Father Ribs]

I believe that's what the mass statistic is. I dunno if anyone has made any mods affecting it offhand, but you could peek in the workshop.

[(Steelclaw)]

Originally posted by Father Ribs:

I believe that's what the mass statistic is. I dunno if anyone has made any mods affecting it offhand, but you could peek in the workshop.

I suppose mass nerfs [edit to clarify: nerfs reducing the mass stat] to high-mass units would be one solution to the problem of anti-large being bad at protecting your lines from disruption, but I'd rather see them be able to do frontal charges like that but get punished for it. Just feels more satisfying.

I play mostly co-op multiplayer, which is unstable enough in vanilla, so I'd rather not try mods, but good shout for singleplayer.

[AurumHawke]

Anything 4000 mass (a.k.a. N'kari) or less gets dead-stopped after a charge by spear entities attacking it - even just one entity. VH Battle AI manages to brace flying, dying, and even freshly dead entities, making them impassible.
Except for that, the AI gets very confused when something's nearby with a move order instead of attack order (it clearly reacts to being the target of an attack order).
The sled just has absurd mass which I suspect is because of all its articulation entities.

Would make some sense if it were tied to a counter-attack, like charge-reflect already should be - can't stab the thing if you aren't stabbing it - but counter-charging means they aren't bracing, and bracing means they aren't attacking until it's adjacent.
Though the kind of monsters in this game are a lot sturdier than a pointy stick.

[(Steelclaw)]

Originally posted by AurumHawke:

Anything 4000 mass (a.k.a. N'kari) or less gets dead-stopped after a charge by spear entities attacking it - even just one entity. VH Battle AI manages to brace flying, dying, and even freshly dead entities, making them impassible.
Except for that, the AI gets very confused when something's nearby with a move order instead of attack order (it clearly reacts to being the target of an attack order).
The sled just has absurd mass which I suspect is because of all its articulation entities.

Would make some sense if it were tied to a counter-attack, like charge-reflect already should be - can't stab the thing if you aren't stabbing it - but counter-charging means they aren't bracing, and bracing means they aren't attacking until it's adjacent.
Though the kind of monsters in this game are a lot sturdier than a pointy stick.

Yeah, apologies if the main post is unclear, I'd intended to communicate that I think charge reflect should be reflecting actual damage, not just buffing counterattacks which are unlikely to happen in time anyway if whatever charged your halberds also knocked them over.

(I'm not saying the damage from charging through a bunch of braced pointy sticks should oneshot big monsters, just that it should hurt.)

[AurumHawke]

Originally posted by (Steelclaw):

Yeah, apologies if the main post is unclear, I'd intended to communicate that I think charge reflect should be reflecting actual damage, not just buffing counterattacks which are unlikely to happen in time anyway if whatever charged your halberds also knocked them over.

(I'm not saying the damage from charging through a bunch of braced pointy sticks should oneshot big monsters, just that it should hurt.)

It was clear, mass*speed counter-damage.
I was kind of suggesting a trade for the dead-stop problem with lone/dying entities.

The units that get bowled over and died would likely be the ones whose weapons would have broken (either by armor, phys-resist, or sheer mass).
The ones damaged but still standing could get full (proportionate to their own size) damage.
Or would weapon breaking be the other way around?
Eh, simpler to deal with if the dead ones were the ones that broke.