When will the Dwarfs finally be fixed?

[Shifty Shoes]

I took a break from the game a couple days after shadows of changed released after dialling back a lot with the release of the Chaos Dwarfs. i remember back when the Chorfs released i was quite annoyed they seemed like Dwarfs but the care and attention they had needed for a while; better more varied units, a stronger economy, and better campaign systems. Now after a bit of time I've realised you can't do somethings with the dwarfs. They definitely shouldn't have cavalry or fast quick response units that's just not the kind of faction they're meant to be, they aren't the Chaos Dwarfs they're an old unique order faction that's meant to play tall. that's the lore and I'm glad that's how i finally see them.

However, I still have a lot of issues and i don't think they will be addressed in thrones of decay after what I've seen from shadows of change. In the conversion from TW2 to TW3 there were some big changes to two key systems both of which were crucial for the dwarfs.

The first being the changes to artillery, artillery used to be extremely good to the point where it definitely needed to be toned down Lightning cannons did over 1,000 damage for gods sake. now my issue with this is a lot of older artillery has been left behind compared to the more modern ones especially single entity artillery like the little grom and death shrieker rocket launcher. The Dwarfs as it stands have been nerfed to the point it has some of the worst artillery in the game, which is the most notable as their cannons quite literally do the least damage compared to ever other type of cannon. Usually I wouldn't be upset but the dwarfs are meant to be the artillery faction in lore, being home to war machines that would strike fear into the hearts of any who dared march against them. currently its just better to spam quarrellers since Thunderers are also one of the worse powder units in the game. I don't know how to fix this other than buffing their range and damage even though i wished they had a rocket battery of some kind.

The second massive change was a complete overhaul of the economic system in the game. this meant it was a slower build up of all your cities or specifically waiting to max one out. I will say at first I didn't like it that much but I have grown to really enjoy it, its great for longer campaigns and adds more decision when building your empire. But the Dwarfs have once again been screwed in this conversion. I will once gain admit that yes the dwarfs definitely needed a more balanced economy with some of the things they got as landmarks. but as it stands they are now the poorest faction in total war (don't go talking about the skaven or the tomb kings we all know their economies work differently and can still be strong). as it stands they're base income building does 100 gold less then every other income building in the game which although doesn't sound like a lot but that's just per settlement in a province with bonuses that loss can stack to 500-600 gold per province. not to mention the money they used to receive from special buildings and resources is a tenth of what it once was. usually this is supplemented in the game by being able to build certain buildings in bigger cities like Kislev and the Warriors of Chaos but Dwarfs haven't received this. I've seen a lot of people talk about trade and tech tree bonuses but everyone gets economic assistance in their tech trees its not special and unique to just the dwarfs and it still leaves them behind. and trade isn't meant to be your baseline economy in campaign its meant to be a bonus for assisting and tending towards your allies and other order factions. which is why chaos factions get a large amount of bonuses towards raiding, razing, and sacking. but once again the problem arises that in lore Dwarfs are supposed to be a power house economy and it just isn't their in the game they are one of the if not the weakest order factions economically. especially compared to their pricey buildings and costly units. The way I would fix this is by placing the base economic buildings on par with all the other order factions, base 500 gold at t3 as well as changing the economic augment buildings to be t2 and t3 instead of t2 and t4. not to mention raising the amount of gold they get from resources like gold going from 600 max to 1200 gold (they are the richest guild after all) and the rest capping at 1000 gold at t4.

the reason i bring these up is because I don't see them changing any time soon and no matter how nice the units may be in a dlc pack it means nothing if their campaign is bad with poor base units and a terrible economy. I know I should probably mention the Oathgold system as well, its good it just needs a bit more. if you give dwarfs a similar system to the green skin scrap mechanic using oathgold its perfect and adds a lot more variety (there is a few great mods that show this). sorry for the long rant but this is basically where the dwarfs currently lay which is a shame coming from a dwarf main the ancestors would not be proud.

[Shifty Shoes]

i congratulate you honoured dwarf kin a campaign as these guys can be very slow and boring especially battle wise, so you've definitely shown your patience and strength. but i will say you probably found some of the artillery more tolerable due to the fact you were playing Thorek who buffs bolt throwers and grudge throwers. not to mention some of the additional buffs you get with crafting lost items through his campaign mechanic (i think he's the best dwarf campaign by far). I would also like to say they all still function as artillery pieces they've just been completely outclassed by all that's around them.

with any economy in the game no matter how bad it is towards the end its always going to be busted, that's just a total war thing. I also have heard of people stacking their lords and using the buff you've mentioned, in my opinion that's just a blatant exploit and is not how the game is meant to be played. of course you can do it breaking this game can be some of the greatest fun you get in it, i would just prefer if it was more balanced as a base line rather than doing it as a necessity.

though i do like some of your ideas, an alternate firing type is becoming a more and more of a common thing in the game and could be better than just some stat increases. i also haven't played the dwarfs since just before the release of shadows of change (i played an empire game before hoping off), and a few people told me the dwarfs had been receiving constant changes for a while. i always found thunderers were never worth the effort for only around 17 missile damage before split and given they had so many problems with line of sight. similarly with the artillery, flame cannons have constantly been changing between a range of 230 to 320 for some reason. personally i see no harm in the 400-440 range.

but i do agree a more updated roster with improvement to units i had completely forgot about would be nice given they are useless and forgettable, the close range rangers who were originally introduced i kid you not as a skirmish piece work best behind your front line as an mid game anti armour piece but can easily be replaced with anything else. troll hammer torpedoes are supposed to function like the ogre lead belches but they also have massive issues with range, speed, damage and line of sight which make them useless.

but thank you for the reply im glad you did have a fun campaign with them maybe its time i get back in the saddle and practice what i preach

[Father Ribs]

The dwarves aren't an artillery faction with an unbreakable infantry line; they're an unbreakable infantry faction with a large variety of artillery and crew served weapons.

Heck, there's plenty of dwarves and at least one LL who thinks gunpowder weapons are newfangled nonsense no proper dwarf would weild.

[Ashley]

True dwarves wield spears their race will continue their decline until this flaw is fixed

[chickabumpbump]

Right!

The lot of you, you just made the book!!

[TasmańskiZwierz]

Originally posted by Logi:

Units wise - i like most of the roster. I dont think Thunderers are too bad, i find them good for killing heroes and single entitles but i wouldnt be adverse to giving them a buff. The units which i never really get any use out of are the Trollhammer torpedoes which seem to be too short ranged and the Close Combat Rangers. How does everyone else get on with these ?

Close Combat Rangers are tailored for Belegar gameplays, as they have lower upkeep than regular T3 dwarf units (Longbeards and Thunderers), which is pretty important as Clan Angrund has pretty weak economy and severe upkeep penalty untill Karak Eight Peaks is retaken. Also, they fit well with Belegar's tactics of ambushes and Underway intercepts, althought he got severly nerfed compared to WH2 with removal of Vanguard for all faction armies trait.

[AkumulatoR]

Wait for ToD. You vill get ze shard dragon and rune golem SEMs and you vill like zem.