Changeling feels.. a bit 'Meh'

[Kel'Thuzad]

I've seen some other threads discussing whether his campaign style is fun or boring. And I'm kind of on the fence about that.

What I wanted to talk about here is that the Changeling as a Lord.. feels pretty boring and underwhelming, for the following reasons;
1/ You need to invest in an entire skill line for transformations to be worthwhile, which generally means you will neglect his Lore of Tzeentch skill tree (since you can't cast Tzeentch spells while transformed).
I get that Tzeentch has an abundance of other caster options that will cover this role while he is transformed, but still..

2/ All transformations seem to take the form of the base model, meaning no mount.. meaning no mobility/fun. Even the Changeling's regular form is on foot with poor mobility (particularly by Tzeentch standards, where almost everything has either wings or a Disk).
If you decided to forego the transformations and invest in his magic skill tree, you'd have a hard time wielding his spells effectively with no mobility.. Kairos laughs at this bozo.

3/ Only has a single legendary/quest item, and the battle for it absolutely *tedious*.

4/ Many of his unique LL skills are geared toward boosting allies and allegiances, but you're a widely hated faction that really struggles to ally with anyone at all...
One of the cult buildings lets you slowly improve relations, but most of the time you have to attack a settlement to establish a cult, thereby ending any prospect of good relations.

So far I've mostly found myself turning him into Festus to use his health regen abilities, which means just standing there.. while other heroes fly around doing all the fun stuff.

Am I missing something or is he really just this 'meh' ?

[Aleera]

He's not actually meant to be a combat lord.
More a manipulator that plays on the over world.

So yes, for battles he's just meh. You play him more for the campaign mechanics then his combat prowess.

[Father Ribs]

I feel they missed out on the forms thing, in that they should be able to sow confusion among the enemy. If you were say, in an Imperial province, and have assumed Franz's form...public order should go way down. Likewise, during battle , if you have the same LL form as the faction you're in battle with, using the seduction mechanic to simulate giving conflicting orders to some of the loyalist units, etc.

The faction as a whole is less exciting because it's so risk-free. In a universe where I created the design document, I'd make their military force much weaker, but more buff/debuff due to misdirection and co-option, like allowing recruitment of "local" units with reduced stats to reflect they're not operating at full efficiency because they're dupes.

[Human bean]

Originally posted by Rianne:

He's not actually meant to be a combat lord.
More a manipulator that plays on the over world.

So yes, for battles he's just meh. You play him more for the campaign mechanics then his combat prowess.

Well! As he can turn into any LL he defeats he can be pretty pragmaticaly awesome (after a while)

[Echo]

I haven't played the Changeling yet, I was quite excited to... but this takes the wind out of my sails.
Overworld and faction mechanics aside, it's the battles where I enjoy my LLs the most.

[Father Ribs]

Originally posted by Echo:

I haven't played the Changeling yet, I was quite excited to... but this takes the wind out of my sails.
Overworld and faction mechanics aside, it's the battles where I enjoy my LLs the most.

The battles are still as much fun as you make it, and the ability to play with every LL form you defeat gives you plenty of variety if you're not all about the min/max.

The strategic concept is interesting, but needs a bit more risk. The mechanics it adds to the game and the quest system for the faction seems like a lot of toys to play with for inspiration for the great collection of modders the game has.

[Dreams of Fury]

Idk, while I havent beat a game with him yet turning him into one of the other demons is always a blast imo.

[CrUsHeR]

Am I missing something or is he really just this 'meh' ?

Yes, definitely missing a lot.

1. This entire skill line only costs 7 points, which would barely be enough to unlock Magic Reserves and Firestorm. So you simply skip the caster line entirely, the bonuses from the polymorph are so much better.

https://totalwarhammerplanner.com/planner/vanilla3/tze_tzeentch/tze_the_changeling

Start with Route Marcher, then down the Horrifying Revelation path while skipping the two skills for Archer damage and Spell Mastery. This can fill out the line at level 9.

For the early game, you cast a bit of Pink Fire as usual to draw fire, while your Metal hero casts Searing Doom (best when archers start firing on the Changeling).
Then you transform into whatever form you have available. Karl Franz, anything you get from the first scheme, and you got the right idea about Festus.

So you got all transformation abilities and spells unlocked, great. But at level 9 you also get Vanguard deployment for the entire army. And you have +20% movement after battle, which works with Teleport Stance.

Now you need to spend 2 more points, these go into Master Schemer and Perplexing Meddler.

At level 12 you start with his unique Lord skills. Obviously you take Parasitosis and "First Come First Served", because the ally recruit skills are more of a gimmick.

At level 15 you finish this skill line with "Now You See Me...", and you got Stalk for your entire army too. The combination with Vanguard is absolutely insane.


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2. No Mounts? Hint: Blue Scribes, Kairos Fateweaver. If you are 100% shameless and have some hours to spare, you could even savescum the first scheme until you get either.
Or do it legitimately:

Blue Scribes should be obvious. Start by building the Cultist building in the Wurtbad province, recruit a Cultist and send him to the Changeling army. Upgrade it to T4 once you have spare gold. Leave it there until you get the "Parchment & Ink" quest to upgrade it to T5.

If you like the Scribes transformation, also take the archer skill in the polymorph skill line.

For Kairos - i always put a Symbiotic Cult into Castle Drakenhof with the first trickster cultist. Add an expansion building and the recruit building for Chaos Sorceror.
Recruit the Sorceror hero ASAP, send him south and steal tech, with prio on making distance southwards.

Ally Kairos, done. You can also confederate him which destroys all his settlements.


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3. Item - no idea. I simply use the mod "Auto-Resolve Quest Battles" after seeing it once. You always get at least 5k gold from the quest.


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4. Diplomacy - lol. This is the one faction where everyone is standing in queue to be your friend. Almost like people are having fights about who can ally you first.

The relationship bonus from the camoflage building stacks. It stacks with different buildings, and it stacks infinitely.


"Hey, it's me. Vlad von Carstein. Remember me? >THE< Vlad von Carstein. Thought i should give you another call. Still haven't gotten your reply about that NAP offer i sent you every turn... for the last 100 turns. Gimme a call, peace, your BFF - Vlad."

MEANWHILE all his settlements are having daily chaos rebellions from your cults, you killed his only friends, and so on. He even has a -100 aversion because Vamps and Chaos don't really get along.


And it's not just that bonus. The Changeling can recruit all types of units just from the cults, which are not restricted by growth and capital building levels. He also can generate silly amounts of gold to pay for high tier armies.

So there's a synergy of having very high military power, not having settlements to be a "strategic threat", and sacking / razing certain factions also gives a quick opinion bonus.

However, there's absolutely no need to ally anyone, except for the schemes. The recruitment sucks because you are still capped at 4 ally units per army. So this isn't worth investing in, especially early on.

Ally or confederate however you want, just don't waste time trying to help anyone. You only need to care about the schemes.

[Green Raven]

I thought his campaign was pretty boring... but theres a mod that randomizes his position on the map, and that makes him a cool wildcard on the map.

[CrUsHeR]

Also just in case, here is a quick start guide:


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1. Sack Niedling > Wurtbad > Grunburg. Establish Parasitic Cults.
Optional - Kemperbad on the way.
Always recruit Blue Horrors every turn while you're still in the Wurtbad province.
Build a Cultist recruit building in Wurtbad if you can spare 3k gold, recruit one.
First Scheme complete just from sacking Niedling.

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2. At the end of the first turn, contact all playable factions, join their wars for gold. Afterwards use Quick Deals to make peace for gold. Can also make NAPs with some minor factions which get defeated anyways.

That way, you can end the first turn with something like 18k gold in the bank.

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3. The Trickster Cultist you get from the Niedling battle should go to Drakenhof, symbiotic cult. Parasitic Expansion + Mortal recruit building (Sorc + Exalted Hero). You also need this for Aekold Helbrass if you have that FLC.
Second Scheme complete.

Recruit a Lord there, make sure Vlad has no army in range. Use Changing of Ways - Spread Corruption. Hide the Lord on the side. Third Scheme complete. Disband the Lord.

Also recruit a Sorceror Hero and send him to steal tech, because the Changeling doesn't really get any research bonuses like Kairos or Vilitch.

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4. Next stop: Altdorf. If Karl Franz is camping there, you can try the full battle there at the blind spots (no towers). Or lure him out by sacking Ubersreik first.
Alternatively you can sneak up on Altdorf from Kemperbad and wait for Franz to leave, but you can't recruit a full Blue stack on that path.
Sacking Altdorf: Fourth Scheme complete.

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5. Do not bother with symbiotic cults in the Altdorf region. This is always the most contested area in the whole Empire. Instead you pave this with Tzeentch corruption and camoflage buildings, so whoever wants to hold this area is screwed (while wanting to be your friend at the same time).

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6. Do the Grand Scheme as soon as you can. Cheese it, use the mod, whatever. This gives +50 cult supplies per turn, and you can send three cultists to Darklands.

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7. Destroy the Fecundites afterwards. Then move the Changeling over to Bretonnia, you're almost there.

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8. The three cultists in Darklands: Send one to Uzkulak, one to Zharr-Naggrund, one to Pig Barter. Make Symbiotic Cults.

The one in Uzkulak is Drazhoath's capital, this will boost his opinion into making an alliance. First free scheme (and lots of gold too)

Zharr-Naggrund: Same as Drakenhof. Recruit a lord, spread corruption, scheme complete.
This is the best settlement for symbiotic income, because no faction will ever manage to conquer it. Second scheme.

Pig Barter; You only need to build a T3 expansion building there. Third scheme and ready for the grand scheme.



This is a rock solid start. After that you can really freestyle.
Going to Bretonnia after killing Festus is just a recommendation; however this is a theatre which may be impossible to solve after Ikit, Grom and Kemmler have killed the humans and elves there.

[Kel'Thuzad]

The thing about the transformations is they just feel vastly weaker than the LL you are mimicking. Largely due to the lack of a mount, and lack of their legendary items.
(E.g. Karl Franz without Deathclaw and the 20% ward save from Silver Seal).
It might be fun once I'm able to turn into a mobile LL like Bel'akor or Valkia.. don't know yet.

They could have made it so that he returns to full health when shifting back into his Changeling form or something.

I can understand if his strength is meant to be on the campaign map and not in battle. But the battles are kind of the reason why I play Tzeentch (Kairos is my fav LL).
Being a 'horde' faction on the campaign map is a bit too boring to offset being weak in battles.

Personally I've never been able to make good use of 'Stalk'.. In my experience they just get instantly spotted. I've had this issue in all TW games with stealth mechanic (i.e. Kisho Ninja in Shogun 2).
Vanguard deployment for the whole army is nice. But unlike Vlad, I'm not playing a strong melee army that can really leverage vanguard. I play Tzeentch as a ranged army with Pink Horrors and Flamers, supported by magic. Starting closer to the enemy is usually a disadvantage.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

The thing about the transformations is they just feel vastly weaker than the LL you are mimicking. Largely due to the lack of a mount, and lack of their legendary items.

(...)

Personally I've never been able to make good use of 'Stalk'.. In my experience they just get instantly spotted. I've had this issue in all TW games with stealth mechanic (i.e. Kisho Ninja in Shogun 2).

Well first off, with the polymorph skills, you are always better than the original, you'll win every duel. Not like Franz has a mount by the time you can sack Altdorf. Not like you need it to bash down gates or climb walls. Or mop the floor with any units.

You also should have access to everything except the mount. Example if you roll Wulfrik from the first scheme, you get his Wind ability (which just destroys things).

Later on you can be the Blue Scribes, Kairos, or - forgot in the "guide" above - Malagor is another alternative.



Stalk & Vanguard: Dude.

If you're familiar with playing the Pink Horror Doomstack - great. Just this time the enemy doesn't know where you are, and you can start anywhere on the map. Diagonal maps even allow you to start behind the enemy army.

Though you can also just camp in the best spot for the Horrors. Fly around with your Metal hero, cast Searing Doom. Grind them down, lure them to the pink horrors, GG easy win.

And it gets even better with a balanced army, like - Woops! Mutalith Vortex Beast jumping in your archer formation. Though the Pink Horror doomstack with Blue Scribes and the Changeling scheme rewards is probably best.

[Many-Named]

it's simple, we had the worst and most unfun version of how his powers and faction could have been.

Alas.

[Kel'Thuzad]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

The thing about the transformations is they just feel vastly weaker than the LL you are mimicking. Largely due to the lack of a mount, and lack of their legendary items.

(...)

Personally I've never been able to make good use of 'Stalk'.. In my experience they just get instantly spotted. I've had this issue in all TW games with stealth mechanic (i.e. Kisho Ninja in Shogun 2).

Well first off, with the polymorph skills, you are always better than the original, you'll win every duel.

Big doubt

[SomeGuy1]

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Well first off, with the polymorph skills, you are always better than the original, you'll win every duel.

Big doubt

there are a fair number of lords that either don't have mounts or don't need their mounts. some are arguably better without them (like Tyrion).

[Kel'Thuzad]

Originally posted by SomeGuy1:

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

Big doubt

there are a fair number of lords that either don't have mounts or don't need their mounts. some are arguably better without them (like Tyrion).

It's more due to stats/iskills and lack of legendary items.
Changeling has one skill that gives +5 MA/MD, meanwhile the Lord you're mimicking has skills that give +12 MA/MD, along with other buffs like weapon strength, etc. and better items.