I Have a Blasphemous Opinion: Orks and Ogres are Chaos Adjacent

[WolfHound]

As far as I can tell...

Orks and Ogres are not Order races, but they definitely look and feel like Chaos Races.

Orks love fighting and they become unhealthy when they're not fighting. Pretty much the same for Khorne and his demons. If there isn't enough violent rage psychic energy in the minds of mortals Khorne and his host will start to fade back into the soup of the warp.

Ogres love eating and they can't survive without having second breakfast, Slaanesh has an entire circle of gluttony in her realm. She too will fade away back into the chaotic ocean of the warp if there isn't enough hedonism and hedonistic psychic energy in the minds of mortals.

Orks use Trolls and Goblins more than anyone else, Trolls and Goblins are gross, especially Trolls. Nurgle is literally the god of gross.

I imagine that Khuresh would rely a lot more on Tzeench and Slaanesh for their sources of magic. From what I've read at the very least...

The way I see it, Orks and Ogres are like Beastmen, Skaven and Khuresh. They're not fighting for Chaos but they do rely heavily on the forces of Chaos. Or rather Orks and Ogres embody much of the qualities of the Chaos Gods. Well, maybe only one or two of them.

In other words: these 5 races are chaos adjacent. Has anyone else considered this at least?

[Garatgh Deloi]

That is like saying humans are a chaos race because they always scheme (a trait of Tzeentch).

Going by the rule book Warhammer fantasy races are categorized as either Order, Destruction or Neutral. In that system Greenskins fall into Destruction while Ogres are neutral.

That said, the system is admittedly only in place for making allied army lists (depending on what category a army fall into the interactions between the allied forces changes).

[WolfHound]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

That is like saying humans are a chaos race because they always scheme (a trait of Tzeentch).

Warhammer fantasy races are categorized as either Order, Destruction or neutral. In that system Greenskins fall into Destruction while Ogres are neutral.

Humans do make up a significant portion of chaos followers.

Still, I don't think thats like saying humans are a chaos race because they always scheme because humans are no where near as self destructive as Orks, Ogres and Chaos.

Humans will grow crops and farms if they can't find enough food. Ogres will start eating each other if they can't find enough things to eat. Humans will build great monuments and do lots of science when they're not at war. Orks will basically commit genocide agaisnt their own kind if they can't find anyone else to fight.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by WolfHound:

because humans are no where near as self destructive as Orks, Ogres and Chaos.

Being destructive isn't necessarily connected with chaos, don't get me wrong, the chaos factions tends to be destructive, but you aren't automatically a chaos faction because you are destructive. The undead factions are some of the most destructive in the setting but they are conceptually extremely anti chaos.

Originally posted by WolfHound:

Humans will build great monuments and do lots of science when they're not at war.

Humans in the warhammer fantasy universe are always at war. They got most of their tech from the Dwarfs (They are just more reckless with said tech, while Dwarfs still consider stuff in the prototype phase after a hundred years). Also the chaos gods and their followers build monuments that are quite literally out of this world.

[Dr. Uncredible]

Iiiit´s not so much blasphemous as incorrect, I mean you want to have it as head-canon that´s fine,
but Orcs are useless to the chaos gods as their souls belong to Gork, Mork and the Waagh, and Ogres were allegedly created by the Old Ones as a chaos-proof race, that had the tragic flaw of being severely limited intellectually, their extreme hunger is partly a curse brought forth upon the creation of their god The Maw (and partly because they´re like really large).

There are fans who have created images and models for chaos corrupted orcs and ogres, but there´s to my knowledge no single official case of this happening.

[jonoliveira12]

You are wrong, and your opinions shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the setting.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Dr. Uncredible:

Iiiit´s not so much blasphemous as incorrect, I mean you want to have it as head-canon that´s fine,
but Orcs are useless to the chaos gods as their souls belong to Gork, Mork and the Waagh, and Ogres were allegedly created by the Old Ones as a chaos-proof race, that had the tragic flaw of being severely limited intellectually, their extreme hunger is partly a curse brought forth upon the creation of their god The Maw (and partly because they´re like really large).

There are fans who have created images and models for chaos corrupted orcs and ogres, but there´s to my knowledge no single official case of this happening.

Chaos Ogres do exist, Tamurkhan famously drove a tribe of Plague Ogres of Nurgle to war, for example.

[Dr. Uncredible]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by Dr. Uncredible:

Iiiit´s not so much blasphemous as incorrect, I mean you want to have it as head-canon that´s fine,
but Orcs are useless to the chaos gods as their souls belong to Gork, Mork and the Waagh, and Ogres were allegedly created by the Old Ones as a chaos-proof race, that had the tragic flaw of being severely limited intellectually, their extreme hunger is partly a curse brought forth upon the creation of their god The Maw (and partly because they´re like really large).

There are fans who have created images and models for chaos corrupted orcs and ogres, but there´s to my knowledge no single official case of this happening.

Chaos Ogres do exist, Tamurkhan famously drove a tribe of Plague Ogres of Nurgle to war, for example.

Oh, my bad! I was not aware of that case.
Thank you for the heads up!
Still, extremely rare.

[cernodan]

You need to change your perspective a bit.
First, consider Order and Chaos, as two diametrically opposed forces, one being the flip side of the other.
Second, consider Chaos as the degeneration of the natural state, of the Order. That is how it's manifested.

Now, to our game lore.
We have the Empire in it's natural state, that of Order and if we flip it, we have the Warriors of Chaos.
We have the Dwarfs in it's natural state, that of Order and if we flip it, we have the Chaos Dwarfs.

Basically, Chaos is a corruption of the natural state. But, with Greenskins and Skaven, their natural state is already a chaotic one, but with some slight differences.
Skaven are a natural force of ruin, so if they come into contact with the forces of chaos, they'll usually cooperate.
Greenskins are a natural force of destruction, so if they come into contact with almost anyone else, they will fight.

Now, for Ogres, from what I remember reading lore tidbits, they were an unfinished experiment of the Old Ones, with the purpose of combating chaos.
Now, if we link back with my previous statements, we can theorize that the Ogres and their nature is due to the Old Ones realizing that to fight Chaos, you need something chaotic (i.e fight fire with fire). It's something like a "Pariah Gene" from 40k.
Anyway, the fact that they can actually be turned to chaos, albeit with considerable effort, can be blamed on their incomplete form.

Finally, if we view the Order/Chaos as a X/Y graphic, we should look at Greenskins and Ogres as being the Z line, since they're not adjacent to any of the other, but rather they're doing their own thing.

[TcT Goth98]

Chaos Ogres DO exist but are pretty rare, Ogres resist mutation really good, but yea. No Chaos Orks that I know of.

[Conflagration]

Originally posted by Dr. Uncredible:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Chaos Ogres do exist, Tamurkhan famously drove a tribe of Plague Ogres of Nurgle to war, for example.

Oh, my bad! I was not aware of that case.
Thank you for the heads up!
Still, extremely rare.

They're less rare than you think, there are a decent amount of Chaos/mutated Ogres out there such as the tribe of Ghuth Spawnchomper who specialise in eating Chaos Spawn for example and have become mutated as a result, and there's also a Chaos Ogre character enslaved by Norscans in a Black Library book.

Being corrupted by Chaos is, strangely enough, not stigmatised in Ogre society unlike pretty much every other race. Ogres will treat Chaos Ogres as they'll treat regular Ogres - they might even be a bit jealous of certain mutations like extra mouths or hands, stuff that facilitates more/easier eating.

[Багряный]

Order races include Elves and Frogs. 80-90% of people are under the rule of chaos in the north. The purest faction of people are the Bretons due to the teachings of the Lady. Dwarfs are similar to orcs and ogres, only small, with a beer belly and a beard; many have turned into chaos dwarfs. So yes, Ogres and Orcs are very close to Chaos. You won't find stories where orcs or ogres are the target of Chaos Demons. But the demons of chaos constantly attack the Elves

[SomeGuy1]

Originally posted by Багряный:

Order races include Elves and Frogs. 80-90% of people are under the rule of chaos in the north. The purest faction of people are the Bretons due to the teachings of the Lady. Dwarfs are similar to orcs and ogres, only small, with a beer belly and a beard; many have turned into chaos dwarfs. So yes, Ogres and Orcs are very close to Chaos. You won't find stories where orcs or ogres are the target of Chaos Demons. But the demons of chaos constantly attack the Elves

there was that time Grimgor kicked Archaeon so hard that his codpiece broke

[Багряный]

Originally posted by SomeGuy1:

Originally posted by Багряный:

Order races include Elves and Frogs. 80-90% of people are under the rule of chaos in the north. The purest faction of people are the Bretons due to the teachings of the Lady. Dwarfs are similar to orcs and ogres, only small, with a beer belly and a beard; many have turned into chaos dwarfs. So yes, Ogres and Orcs are very close to Chaos. You won't find stories where orcs or ogres are the target of Chaos Demons. But the demons of chaos constantly attack the Elves

there was that time Grimgor kicked Archaeon so hard that his codpiece broke

The Black Orcs were made by the Chaos Dwarves to serve as slaves. Therefore, Grimgor is in many ways an instrument of chaos. Waaagh is created for destruction, no different from an invading army of chaos warriors. Normal competition within chaos.

[Funky Monk]

Orks and Ogres don't feel like Chaos at all. They are "neutral" races.

[TcT Goth98]

Originally posted by Багряный:

Order races include Elves and Frogs. 80-90% of people are under the rule of chaos in the north. The purest faction of people are the Bretons due to the teachings of the Lady. Dwarfs are similar to orcs and ogres, only small, with a beer belly and a beard; many have turned into chaos dwarfs. So yes, Ogres and Orcs are very close to Chaos. You won't find stories where orcs or ogres are the target of Chaos Demons. But the demons of chaos constantly attack the Elves

Wrong. Stop trying to confuse new people to the setting with your ♥♥♥♥ fanfiction.