Best early turns approach for Malekith?

[Lampros]

I am playing Malekith for the first time in a while, and - holy sheet! - it's so much harder than it was in WH2. 2 main problems I cannot resolve. First, I am no longer making twice as much money as I did with all other factions, and this brings up the next issue. Second, I have a lot more early threats than I did before. Grombrindal is much stronger than I remember him being in the past and more aggressive. Further, Valkia runs over Hellebron rather quickly in my experience. So I have potentially two mortal threats fairly soon - again, with my economy no longer being what I used to be.

So in short: How do I ramp up my economy quickly; and whom should I fight first - Grombrindal or Vakia (and try to save Hellebron)?

[jtordoff]

TLDR: got Grombrindal and Valki to fight each other and cleaned up the mess.
I had the very same problem on VH/VH. What i did was I did not take Naggaronds other settlement, let Grombrindal take that, I played nice with all my neighbors, even paid some protection money to Grombrindal. Before Grond was destroyed by Valkia, I confederated them and Valkia moved on to Helbron. At this point Grombrindal and Valkia share a border and they start fighting. I then attack Valkia and take what I want while solidifing my relationship with Helebron and giving Grombrindal every reason to leave me alone. Whatever Valkia and Mung fail to accomplish I finish with regards to Grombrindal and the same for Valkia with Helebron.

It is not a "normal" total war solution but it does work. Also remember that the slavery mechanic is very different from WH2. THAT really took some getting used to.

Have Fun!

[Lampros]

Originally posted by jtordoff:

TLDR: got Grombrindal and Valki to fight each other and cleaned up the mess.
I had the very same problem on VH/VH. What i did was I did not take Naggaronds other settlement, let Grombrindal take that, I played nice with all my neighbors, even paid some protection money to Grombrindal. Before Grond was destroyed by Valkia, I confederated them and Valkia moved on to Helbron. At this point Grombrindal and Valkia share a border and they start fighting. I then attack Valkia and take what I want while solidifing my relationship with Helebron and giving Grombrindal every reason to leave me alone. Whatever Valkia and Mung fail to accomplish I finish with regards to Grombrindal and the same for Valkia with Helebron.

It is not a "normal" total war solution but it does work. Also remember that the slavery mechanic is very different from WH2. THAT really took some getting used to.

Have Fun!

Yes, once I did get Grombrindal and Valkia at each other's throat, and I used the opportunity to jump Grombrindal.

I am not sure about not grabbing the second settlement in Naggaroth though. That means I have even less money, and money is one of my main two problems with Malekith early game! ;)

Any economy advice in general? Like what buildings on your capital to survive the early game?

[jtordoff]

The short answer is, the economy is much tighter than in WH2 and requires alot more micro management. Every province (even incomplete ones) can sells slaves for cash ( or growth or control), but they must be done manually every turn. I built the 3 tier money building in every settlement.

Money was real tight early on, I ran lean with a single army and pinched every penny with trade, I was real patient and took every opportunity to grab wandering armies/beastmen/islands to keep developing. I had Gorond and Hag Grath partially developed by the time I took second Naggarond settlement. Even at long victory time, my economy wasn't anywhere near what I would have in WH2 at the same point (around turn 170). Most of my Black arks were empty but developed.

I hope that helps.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by jtordoff:

The short answer is, the economy is much tighter than in WH2 and requires alot more micro management. Every province (even incomplete ones) can sells slaves for cash ( or growth or control), but they must be done manually every turn. I built the 3 tier money building in every settlement.

Money was real tight early on, I ran lean with a single army and pinched every penny with trade, I was real patient and took every opportunity to grab wandering armies/beastmen/islands to keep developing. I had Gorond and Hag Grath partially developed by the time I took second Naggarond settlement. Even at long victory time, my economy wasn't anywhere near what I would have in WH2 at the same point (around turn 170). Most of my Black arks were empty but developed.

I hope that helps.

Ah, so you took both Ghrond and Hag Graef early? So you didn't turtle the whole time! ;)

[jtordoff]

I confederated parts of Grhond by turn 15 and got the Hag gref city (not it's minor settlements) by turn 30 BUT didn't really develop them until later. I was expecting to lose them, I was using them as a "No Man's land" for a while. Both those cities/provinces are big money places when developed and safe.

I felt like I was turtling, the Dark Lord afraid to come out of his yet to be constructed Dark Tower, while angry dwarf lords fought even angrier winged demon women, both demanding money from me ..or else, all while I was clipping coupons for construction and recruitment (OWWH! 30% off melee troops!)

IT is a very different experience from the Malekith experience of WH2

[Lampros]

Originally posted by jtordoff:

I confederated parts of Grhond by turn 15 and got the Hag gref city (not it's minor settlements) by turn 30 BUT didn't really develop them until later. I was expecting to lose them, I was using them as a "No Man's land" for a while. Both those cities/provinces are big money places when developed and safe.

I felt like I was turtling, the Dark Lord afraid to come out of his yet to be constructed Dark Tower, while angry dwarf lords fought even angrier winged demon women, both demanding money from me ..or else, all while I was clipping coupons for construction and recruitment (OWWH! 30% off melee troops!)

IT is a very different experience from the Malekith experience of WH2

Ah, okay. I usually prefer attacking early to get my Lords leveled up, so I didn't think of confederating. But both settlement give you attrition, so attacking them is not so easy either.

Yeah, I almost feel the DE situation with pretty hopeless in North America, with formidable enemies everywhere. It seems like Lokhir and Malus are easier than the North American starters, but I don't like either LLs...

[ChaosKhan]

Originally posted by Lampros:

I am playing Malekith for the first time in a while, and - holy sheet! - it's so much harder than it was in WH2. 2 main problems I cannot resolve. First, I am no longer making twice as much money as I did with all other factions, and this brings up the next issue. Second, I have a lot more early threats than I did before. Grombrindal is much stronger than I remember him being in the past and more aggressive. Further, Valkia runs over Hellebron rather quickly in my experience. So I have potentially two mortal threats fairly soon - again, with my economy no longer being what I used to be.

So in short: How do I ramp up my economy quickly; and whom should I fight first - Grombrindal or Vakia (and try to save Hellebron)?

I'll give you the most optimal guide that you can't really go wrong with for the first 10 turns. Keep in mind, that you ofc don't have to follow it perfectly but it's still very purposeful if you would at least consider, why I do the stuff I do there in order to troubleshoot headaches before they arise.

Turn 1: Take Har Kaldra, recruit a second lord and start recruiting. From now on, recruit 2 units every single turn until you have a full stack.
Turn 2: Move both stacks to the border of the region towards Altar of Ultimate Darkness so they can replenish/soak some winds.
Turn 3: Take Altar of Darkness, but occupy it with the lone lord, while Malekith immediately goes to the border towards Rackdo Gorge.
Turn 4: The AI will usually place a stack in front of the settlement. Attack the stack and fight the battle manually. Your superior Dark Elves should make short work of the superior numbers of Clanrats and Slaves. Sell Altar of Ultimate Darkness to Grombrindal for a NAP and tons of money or NAP and trade treaty. You decide.
Turn 5: Wipe out the depleted garrison of Rackdo Gorge, take it with your lone lord and force march Malekith towards the Chill Road. The Mung will have already a stack on the way to invade Ghrond.
Turn 6: Mung will have taken Chill road. You can then immediate take the stack out.
Turn 7: Valkia will have taken Ashrak. You grab the Great Arena.
Turn 8: Valkia marches down to Chill Road, you can either wait for her to first take Chill Road and then counterattack or ambush her on the way there.
Turn 9: You go to Ashrak.
Turn 10: You take Ashrak again with the lone lord and force march Malekith towards Valkias fortress. Keep in mind to not take attrition dmg, since the garrison is quite strong and WoC can insta-recruit stuff.

From then on, you completely wipe Chaos counterclock-wise. While you do that, you can break the treaty with Grombrindal and invade as soon as it expires.

Now you have a couple choices ahead. The reason we NAPd Grombrindal is, that it's virtually impossible to completely wipe him out before Valkia razes the Great Arena and marches towards Naggarond. Potentially it would be possible to first deal with the Ogres south of Rackdo and come back to Naggarond before Valkia can attack it, but the Mung stack will be around so it might be tricky. It's not worth it to take the risk unless you are very confident in your skill in tactical battles. Should you ever lose the accompanying lone lord, just recruit another. I can't overstate how important it is to have a lone lord accompany your main stack for menual tasks and bait purposes.

What else you can do is to recruit a third lord in Naggarond and colonise the Temple of Khaine while you do all the stuff I mentioned. Decide whether you can afford it based on your progress and economy.

[jtordoff]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by jtordoff:

I confederated parts of Grhond by turn 15 and got the Hag gref city (not it's minor settlements) by turn 30 BUT didn't really develop them until later. I was expecting to lose them, I was using them as a "No Man's land" for a while. Both those cities/provinces are big money places when developed and safe.

I felt like I was turtling, the Dark Lord afraid to come out of his yet to be constructed Dark Tower, while angry dwarf lords fought even angrier winged demon women, both demanding money from me ..or else, all while I was clipping coupons for construction and recruitment (OWWH! 30% off melee troops!)

IT is a very different experience from the Malekith experience of WH2

Ah, okay. I usually prefer attacking early to get my Lords leveled up, so I didn't think of confederating. But both settlement give you attrition, so attacking them is not so easy either.

Yeah, I almost feel the DE situation with pretty hopeless in North America, with formidable enemies everywhere. It seems like Lokhir and Malus are easier than the North American starters, but I don't like either LLs...

Not hopeless just difficult, and different. I not a fan of Malus but Lokir is kinda cool with his dragon. Lokir's downside is he buffs early game units. You can also try the BLITZ strategy like ChaosKhan lays out. If you could cleanse the area quickly and build up before a challenger shows up it could create an interesting, different than normal mid-late game.

[ChaosKhan]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Yes, once I did get Grombrindal and Valkia at each other's throat, and I used the opportunity to jump Grombrindal.

I am not sure about not grabbing the second settlement in Naggaroth though. That means I have even less money, and money is one of my main two problems with Malekith early game! ;)

Any economy advice in general? Like what buildings on your capital to survive the early game?

Money shouldn't be an issue. Dark Elves make most of their money from sacking either way so it's not really about buildings but about attacking and sacking as much as possible. Every turn a stack wastes in own territory are thousands of gold lost for nothing. When I wrote the 10 turn guide, I had made over 30k gold during this time from missions, combat loot and sacking. Dark Elves don't have economy issues, they only have inactivity issues.

As for buildings, it's the same as for most other factions. Growth buildings, upgrade to T2, artisans. Get a Slave Pen building asap, so you get a Black Arc. The earlier you start growing it, the better. I also recommend spending the first 6 points of every lord into Dreaded Slaver and Infamous Raider and look out for the "Cruel" trait when getting new lords. It all stacks into incredible output and makes Dark Elves still by far the richest race in the game.

Originally posted by jtordoff:

Originally posted by Lampros:

Ah, okay. I usually prefer attacking early to get my Lords leveled up, so I didn't think of confederating. But both settlement give you attrition, so attacking them is not so easy either.

Yeah, I almost feel the DE situation with pretty hopeless in North America, with formidable enemies everywhere. It seems like Lokhir and Malus are easier than the North American starters, but I don't like either LLs...

Not hopeless just difficult, and different. I not a fan of Malus but Lokir is kinda cool with his dragon. Lokir's downside is he buffs early game units. You can also try the BLITZ strategy like ChaosKhan lays out. If you could cleanse the area quickly and build up before a challenger shows up it could create an interesting, different than normal mid-late game.

I am not a fan of Malus and Lokhir either, but they have more interesting start positions imho. Rekarth and Lokhir feel like you are being a raider on adventure, which is quite cool. Malus is just in a weird spot, where you basically fight everyone and everything around. My personal favourite is Hellebron, but not gonna lie, her start position is pretty much the most boring out of everyone, but boy do I love deleting everything with Witch Elves on impact.