(old thread) How Do You Properly Use Brettonia In Battle? (Carcassonne/Fay)

[Good Night Owl]

I'm playing them for the first time.

"WITHDRAAAWW!!!" Is all I've been hearing. I'm worried the next time someone asks me my name, I may have forgotten it, and might just say that instead.

Is my mistake using their infantry? Because the starting cavalry unit I got seems to be the only unit worth a damn in this faction so far. Auto Resolves don't at all match up with how battles actually go. 'Close-victories' are 'Decicive Defeats' with how they actually play out. I don't know where the game gets the results from.

Even just looking at unit stats, I don't understand where the auto resolve gets that 'victory' from. Enemy units have higher morale, higher damage, and I'm supposed to believe my army of farmers are supposed to win.

[soviergn]

Peasants are for holding enemy units still, ram cavalry up the ass of anything that's engaged with your farmers, use ♥♥♥♥♥♥ archers for anything large. Cycle charge until win. Expect to lose lots of peasants. But they're peasants. If they didn't want to be in the meat grinder they shouldn't have been born poor.

[JustSmile]

Battle difficulty setting affects autoresolve HEAVILY. I think on normal player has something along the lines of 300% bonus, and that lets garrisons beat doomstacks.

As for Bretonnia, their infantry is worthless ♥♥♥♥. Use them as a puddle of meat to keep enemy in place while you repeatedly charge.

[KTVindicare]

Originally posted by Good Night Owl:

Is my mistake using their infantry?

Yes. That's your answer.

Don't even build a barracks. Use Archers, and Cavalry in the early game and use Lords as your frontline. Recruit extra lords at the start of the campaign which you can afford to do since Bretonnia doesn't have supply lines.

Recruiting extra Lords at the start also makes it easier to get jump started on their vows.

The only Bretonnian melee Infantry that are worth anything are Battle Pilgrims and you get those from a Grail Shrine. Battle Pilgrims and a Grail Reliquae will hold the line moderately effectively but will NOT deal any significant damage. Your killing power comes from your cavalry and your magic.

Foot Squires aren't worth building in campaign since they require a Level IV Barracks to recruit, which isn't worth having in most major settlements over having additional Stables for Paladin capacity, or income buildings or even armories.

[Good Night Owl]

Originally posted by soviergn:

Peasants are for holding enemy units still, ram cavalry up the ass of anything that's engaged with your farmers, use ♥♥♥♥♥♥ archers for anything large. Cycle charge until win. Expect to lose lots of peasants. But they're peasants. If they didn't want to be in the meat grinder they shouldn't have been born poor.

FOR NORMANDY. I MEAN BRETTONIA!!

[Good Night Owl]

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

Originally posted by Good Night Owl:

Is my mistake using their infantry?

Yes. That's your answer.

Don't even build a barracks. Use Archers, and Cavalry in the early game and use Lords as your frontline. Recruit extra lords at the start of the campaign which you can afford to do since Bretonnia doesn't have supply lines.

Recruiting extra Lords at the start also makes it easier to get jump started on their vows.

The only Bretonnian melee Infantry that are worth anything are Battle Pilgrims and you get those from a Grail Shrine. Battle Pilgrims and a Grail Reliquae will hold the line moderately effectively but will NOT deal any significant damage. Your killing power comes from your cavalry and your magic.

Foot Squires aren't worth building in campaign since they require a Level IV Barracks to recruit, which isn't worth having in most major settlements over having additional Stables for Paladin capacity, or income buildings or even armories.

Good to know. When you say lords, you mean heroes right? Or do you mean lords? I guess it doesn't matter too much.

[KTVindicare]

Originally posted by Good Night Owl:

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

Yes. That's your answer.

Don't even build a barracks. Use Archers, and Cavalry in the early game and use Lords as your frontline. Recruit extra lords at the start of the campaign which you can afford to do since Bretonnia doesn't have supply lines.

Recruiting extra Lords at the start also makes it easier to get jump started on their vows.

The only Bretonnian melee Infantry that are worth anything are Battle Pilgrims and you get those from a Grail Shrine. Battle Pilgrims and a Grail Reliquae will hold the line moderately effectively but will NOT deal any significant damage. Your killing power comes from your cavalry and your magic.

Foot Squires aren't worth building in campaign since they require a Level IV Barracks to recruit, which isn't worth having in most major settlements over having additional Stables for Paladin capacity, or income buildings or even armories.

Good to know. When you say lords, you mean heroes right? Or do you mean lords? I guess it doesn't matter too much.

Heroes work too, and in fact Paladins are some of the best units that Bretonnia has and you want as many of them as you can get (which is why you want a level 3 stables in EVERY major settlement) but in the early game you can't recruit additional Paladins, so you recruit Lords instead.

Lords cost 300 upkeep per. Most factions have supply lines which means an additional Lord increases the upkeep of your entire starting army by a percentage, Bretonnia doesn't. Lords just cost a flat upkeep cost, so you can get as many of them in the early game as you can afford.

Use them in place of infantry. All of your peasant slots in the early game should be going towards Archers or Trebuchets. You can use the infantry you start with, but do not bother recruiting more than that.

[Good Night Owl]

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

Originally posted by Good Night Owl:

Good to know. When you say lords, you mean heroes right? Or do you mean lords? I guess it doesn't matter too much.

Heroes work too, and in fact Paladins are some of the best units that Bretonnia has and you want as many of them as you can get (which is why you want a level 3 stables in EVERY major settlement) but in the early game you can't recruit additional Paladins, so you recruit Lords instead.

Lords cost 300 upkeep per. Most factions have supply lines which means an additional Lord increases the upkeep of your entire starting army by a percentage, Bretonnia doesn't. Lords just cost a flat upkeep cost, so you can get as many of them in the early game as you can afford.

Use them in place of infantry. All of your peasant slots in the early game should be going towards Archers or Trebuchets. You can use the infantry you start with, but do not bother recruiting more than that.

Thank you, that's helpful to know. the fact that my tech tree valued hero and lord battle performance gave me that hint, but I didn't consider using them like that.

[SarmatII]

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

Originally posted by Good Night Owl:

Is my mistake using their infantry?

Yes. That's your answer.

Don't even build a barracks. Use Archers, and Cavalry in the early game and use Lords as your frontline. Recruit extra lords at the start of the campaign which you can afford to do since Bretonnia doesn't have supply lines.

Recruiting extra Lords at the start also makes it easier to get jump started on their vows.

The only Bretonnian melee Infantry that are worth anything are Battle Pilgrims and you get those from a Grail Shrine. Battle Pilgrims and a Grail Reliquae will hold the line moderately effectively but will NOT deal any significant damage. Your killing power comes from your cavalry and your magic.

Foot Squires aren't worth building in campaign since they require a Level IV Barracks to recruit, which isn't worth having in most major settlements over having additional Stables for Paladin capacity, or income buildings or even armories.

This.

Peasant archers will deal more damage, and will function as the anvil your cavalry hammers into.

Peasant archers are also very OP for their tier, as one of the few factions to get them at t1 from what is an economic building, which comes with 160 range.

So a checkerboard with archers on guard mode, backed by some units of cav, a lore of life/heaven caster, and it will handle pretty much every early game army with ease.

If any enemy melee reaches your archer, you charge into their backs with cav.

[Green Raven]

You need to plan ahead when it comes to hiring lords. New lords cant command higher tier units, and that can come back to bite you.

[Saika]

I primarily play Bretonnia and honestly do the complete opposite approach then what I am seeing here. I seldom use their archers unless i specifically want the effects of fire or poison, and by the mid to late game completely faze them out for either allied recruitment ranged or more trebuchets. its not even that their archers are bad, but the moment anything with decent armor comes out they tend to be too expensive for their performance. When it comes to the melee line, bretonnian infantry are only meant to hold, they will never be your damage dealers, even foot squires struggle in that role despite their tag. As a result, I think if you are going to have a Bretonnian melee line in most cases you should only make Spearmen-at-arms with shields. Men-at-Arms with polearms are better at holding the line with more defense and leadership, but I don't think its worth giving up the 55% missile block chance. Their red line skill for generals is also a must, giving them improved leadership and melee defense.

[Good Night Owl]

Originally posted by Green Raven:

You need to plan ahead when it comes to hiring lords. New lords cant command higher tier units, and that can come back to bite you.

Well, I don't plan on getting rid of the lords I hire if that's what you mean. Typically I hire new lords with the intention of them eventually being not new.

[KTVindicare]

Originally posted by Saika:

I primarily play Bretonnia and honestly do the complete opposite approach then what I am seeing here. I seldom use their archers unless i specifically want the effects of fire or poison, and by the mid to late game completely faze them out for either allied recruitment ranged or more trebuchets. its not even that their archers are bad, but the moment anything with decent armor comes out they tend to be too expensive for their performance. When it comes to the melee line, bretonnian infantry are only meant to hold, they will never be your damage dealers, even foot squires struggle in that role despite their tag. As a result, I think if you are going to have a Bretonnian melee line in most cases you should only make Spearmen-at-arms with shields. Men-at-Arms with polearms are better at holding the line with more defense and leadership, but I don't think its worth giving up the 55% missile block chance. Their red line skill for generals is also a must, giving them improved leadership and melee defense.

There's 3 reasons I find Archers better.

1. Peasant Archers actually deal pretty solid damage in the early game, especially against the enemies Bretonnia will be fighting in the early game.

Greenskins, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings all rely more on numbers than armor. Basic Peasant Archers deal great damage vs them if they are able to use their ammo. They do even better vs Vampire Count Regenerating units when they have Fire Arrows. You're right that once you start facing Chaos Warriors you'll need something better, but Chaos Warriors will absolutely massacre Men at Arms too.

2. Siege Battles. Bretonnian Cavalry sucks in Siege Battles, especially walled Siege Battles, and their infantry is garbage here too. You can't use hammer and anvil tactics in a walled siege battle so you'd need to rely on the killing power of infantry for them to have any value and their killing value as we've already discussed is next to nothing.

Archers meanwhile are fantastic in Siege Battles. They can park near walls and just soften everything up inside for your Knights and Heroes and Lord to clear out.

3. This is the biggest reason. You can recruit Peasant Archers from Farms which you are building anyway for their income value. Men at Arms require an entire extra building that could be a Stables, a Grail Shrine, a Pox Shelter or basically ANYTHING more useful.

You sacrifice an entire building slot in the early campaign just to build infantry that only have value for holding things in place for your cavalry. Your Archers can serve this role as well, to a lesser extent, while also being able to actually deal solid damage to early game enemies, and support your Knights in Siege Battles.

It simply makes more sense to me.

[Saika]

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

There's 3 reasons I find Archers better.

1. Peasant Archers actually deal pretty solid damage in the early game, especially against the enemies Bretonnia will be fighting in the early game.

Greenskins, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings all rely more on numbers than armor. Basic Peasant Archers deal great damage vs them if they are able to use their ammo. You're right that once you start facing Chaos Warriors you'll need something better, but Chaos Warriors will absolutely massacre Men at Arms too.

2. Siege Battles. Bretonnian Cavalry sucks in Siege Battles, especially walled Siege Battles, and their infantry is garbage here too. You can't use hammer and anvil tactics in a walled siege battle so you'd need to rely on the killing power of infantry for them to have any value and their killing value as we've already discussed is next to nothing.

Archers meanwhile are fantastic in Siege Battles. They can park near walls and just soften everything up inside for your Knights and Heroes and Lord to clear out.

3. This is the biggest reason. You can recruit Peasants from Farms which you are building anyway for their income value. Bretonnian Infantry requires an entire extra building that could be a Stables, a Grail Shrine, a Pox Shelter or basically ANYTHING more useful.

You sacrifice an entire building slot in the early campaign just to build infantry that only have value for holding things in place for your cavalry. Your Archers can serve this role as well, to a lesser extent, while also being able to actually deal solid damage to early game enemies, and support your Knights in Siege Battles.

It simply makes more sense to me.

The same units that can be killed easily with peasant archers will lose to men-at-arms in a straight melee fight, with the exceptions of Marauders and Orc Boys, with the benefit of men-at-arms being cheaper. At this point however it would become the argument of do you want a unit that will buy you a little more time (men-at-arms) vs a unit that can actually get some damage in (Bowmen), and I don't use peasants for damage. The exception to this is when I have a lord who can't have any knight units, I will actually mix both together, as men-at-arms can hold and peasant bowmen can kill.

I use bretonnian cavalry in sieges all the time, if a unit doesn't have charge defense in most cases you can run right through it, keep going, and capture points, or turn around and hit it in the rear when your melee units follow up, you can also stack several cavalry units in lance formation to punch through the same target more effectively. You can absolutely use hammer and anvil in a siege battle, but this is more due to how incompetent the AI is and it really shouldn't be so easy to do. This is also very dependent on the map in question as some siege maps are just asinine in design and benefit the attacker more than the defender, especially with the nonsense that is the momentum buff.

The building slot thing though is definitely a drawback, and I actually think it really sucks that Bretonnia does not have a militia unit (unit that can be trained in any settlement), that alone is a huge drawback because given the two settlement provinces in Bretonnia itself, most of which already has a build slot taken by a port. Growth is difficult to build early and building space is limited.

[endurstonehelm]

Another reason to go with archers and knights is that it fits the theme. The 4th edition Bretnonnian starter army was just archers and knights.

[KTVindicare]

Originally posted by Saika:

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

There's 3 reasons I find Archers better.

1. Peasant Archers actually deal pretty solid damage in the early game, especially against the enemies Bretonnia will be fighting in the early game.

Greenskins, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings all rely more on numbers than armor. Basic Peasant Archers deal great damage vs them if they are able to use their ammo. You're right that once you start facing Chaos Warriors you'll need something better, but Chaos Warriors will absolutely massacre Men at Arms too.

2. Siege Battles. Bretonnian Cavalry sucks in Siege Battles, especially walled Siege Battles, and their infantry is garbage here too. You can't use hammer and anvil tactics in a walled siege battle so you'd need to rely on the killing power of infantry for them to have any value and their killing value as we've already discussed is next to nothing.

Archers meanwhile are fantastic in Siege Battles. They can park near walls and just soften everything up inside for your Knights and Heroes and Lord to clear out.

3. This is the biggest reason. You can recruit Peasants from Farms which you are building anyway for their income value. Bretonnian Infantry requires an entire extra building that could be a Stables, a Grail Shrine, a Pox Shelter or basically ANYTHING more useful.

You sacrifice an entire building slot in the early campaign just to build infantry that only have value for holding things in place for your cavalry. Your Archers can serve this role as well, to a lesser extent, while also being able to actually deal solid damage to early game enemies, and support your Knights in Siege Battles.

It simply makes more sense to me.

The building slot thing though is definitely a drawback, and I actually think it really sucks that Bretonnia does not have a militia unit (unit that can be trained in any settlement), that alone is a huge drawback because given the two settlement provinces in Bretonnia itself, most of which already has a build slot taken by a port. Growth is difficult to build early and building space is limited.

Funny enough, Bretonnia does have a militia unit. It's called Peasant Mob.

If you REALLY want to play the way you're playing I have an even harder time justifying why I should spend a building slot on Men at Arms when I can use Peasant Mob for 0 upkeep.

And no Men at Arms will NOT win vs anything on Very Hard battle difficulty which is what I play on. Even on default settings with minimal AI melee cheats, they will break and run away against a unit of Goblins, or a unit of Skeleton Warriors.

The ONLY value they have is holding units in place for your cavalry. A job that Peasant Mob can do, a little less effectively, but a lot cheaper. Or you can use Peasant Archers (which can be an effective anvil as well if you don't care about casualties) that can also deal damage.