Clan Eshin late game army

[Ronin75]

In need some advise for Eshin late game army compositions. From the roster I gather there are really no late game units for Eshin, they end at Tier 3 with death runners, as far as I could tell. They are good, but are they really viable for end game? How do you make an Eshin army (not Snikch, but rather generic Assasin lord) viable with exclusively Eshin units and an Eshin sorcerer?

[CrUsHeR]

Probably depends on which factions your Clan Contracts are RNG'ing.

Like buying an army of Moulder Monsters for 3.5k a piece isn't gonna happen. But there are 3 RoRs for those at least which don't cost extra, so one army can safely get a Packmaster with those and a few extra monsters later on.

Example in my current Eshin campaign, Skryre had a good standing quickly. So i went with two semi weapon teams armies and catapults / cannons early on. Also just confederated Ikit after he lost all armies.

Generally the problem isn't that the Eshin-only armies don't perform well, but they cost so much upkeep for what they do. This and the clan contracts being so random should be fixed.



PS - One thing to consider, once you mix in non-Eshin units, you give up the all-vanguard and all-stalk concept. But if you play lots of auto-resolve, rules are a bit different.

For example, the Doomwheel always loses like 90% health if the army doesn't have a bunch of "meat shield" units. So this doesn't work in AR if half your army are Gutter Runners. Doom-Flayers work better.

[RuOne]

Simple - Gutter Runners

[KoboldUtopian]

I have't played Snititch in a long time but I do remember there being a massive difference between lvl1 and lvl9 gutter/death runners. A new army will fall apart but a max rank one with the Eshen faction bonuses is very strong (though not really in AR)

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by CoerciveUtopian:

I have't played Snititch in a long time but I do remember there being a massive difference between lvl1 and lvl9 gutter/death runners. A new army will fall apart but a max rank one with the Eshen faction bonuses is very strong (though not really in AR)

The skirmish AI also doesn't work anymore compared the WH2. And apparently the melee and cavalry units were buffed.

Like the Gutter Runners constantly get into melee because the kiting in skirmish mode simply doesn't work like it used to.
Or they don't fire as much as they should, unless you give them a target. But you can't have them run away and focus one target at the same time.

Nagarythe has similar problems with the Shadow Walker doomstacks, but at least these have 180 range.

[KoboldUtopian]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Originally posted by CoerciveUtopian:

I have't played Snititch in a long time but I do remember there being a massive difference between lvl1 and lvl9 gutter/death runners. A new army will fall apart but a max rank one with the Eshen faction bonuses is very strong (though not really in AR)

The skirmish AI also doesn't work anymore compared the WH2. And apparently the melee and cavalry units were buffed.

Like the Gutter Runners constantly get into melee because the kiting in skirmish mode simply doesn't work like it used to.
Or they don't fire as much as they should, unless you give them a target. But you can't have them run away and focus one target at the same time.

Nagarythe has similar problems with the Shadow Walker doomstacks, but at least these have 180 range.

Skirmish never really worked well. I manually control them when I'm kiting around AI units, otherwise they run around weirdly and end up getting stuck.

[Ronin75]

Originally posted by RuOne:

Simple - Gutter Runners

Doesn't work because of ammunition shortage. late game. If you go against one really good stack or two stacks, you will run out of ammo quickly, even if you have an engineer or two, in which case you loose your eshin only concept anyways.

[Ronin75]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Probably depends on which factions your Clan Contracts are RNG'ing.

Like buying an army of Moulder Monsters for 3.5k a piece isn't gonna happen. But there are 3 RoRs for those at least which don't cost extra, so one army can safely get a Packmaster with those and a few extra monsters later on.

Example in my current Eshin campaign, Skryre had a good standing quickly. So i went with two semi weapon teams armies and catapults / cannons early on. Also just confederated Ikit after he lost all armies.

Generally the problem isn't that the Eshin-only armies don't perform well, but they cost so much upkeep for what they do. This and the clan contracts being so random should be fixed.



PS - One thing to consider, once you mix in non-Eshin units, you give up the all-vanguard and all-stalk concept. But if you play lots of auto-resolve, rules are a bit different.

For example, the Doomwheel always loses like 90% health if the army doesn't have a bunch of "meat shield" units. So this doesn't work in AR if half your army are Gutter Runners. Doom-Flayers work better.

Yes, the only viable option I see as well is to mix up your eshin forces with other skaven ones, preferably long range, so you can still utilize the gutter runners in skirmish at the beginning stages.

[Jarmam]

Ammo shouldn't be an issue for you. You are Clan Eshin, most devious sneak-sneak of all Skaven. You don't fight fair. You ambush. Every time. Even the brilliant and mighty Tretch Craventail (sigma-rat of all Skaven) should be impressed at your genius.

If you take an army of skirmishers into 4 enemy stacks, you will lose, you should lose, if you didn't lose then the game would be hilariously easy. So don't fight more than a single stack or two at a time. Stay in ambush stance, don't give away your army positions for free, and jump whichever stack strays too close to you in March (near-guaranteed ambush for when his friends are close). You have AP slingers that can take down Dragon Princes. Just ask Imrik about his old starting position. Next fight, full ammo again, and equally importantly full clanrat summons to help your skirmishers keep enemy cav tied up for a spell. Eshin Assassins will scout ahead and soften up the enemy for you if required. Worst case scenario, you just bring 2 stacks of slingers and drag both into an ambush on that raidboss of an enemy LL. Even best-mighty Skaven is still Skaven, and the answer can always be 'just bring more stuff lmao'.

Using their units, you could doomstack like Skryre or Moulder if you are allergic to fun, or you could reject their nonsense and play to your strengths, even if it takes a bit of practice. And sometimes luck.

Speaking of Nagarythe, it would be beyond wonderful if Alith got a similar mechanic to Sniktch's with the unit recruitment cost debuff until you do some dirty work for your fellow Helfs. As stands he is a Helf with Skaven+ powers and so broken it is comical to exploit until it gets old.

[RuOne]

Originally posted by Ronin75:

Originally posted by RuOne:

Simple - Gutter Runners

Doesn't work because of ammunition shortage. late game. If you go against one really good stack or two stacks, you will run out of ammo quickly, even if you have an engineer or two, in which case you loose your eshin only concept anyways.

Disagree, use your ammo well enough and they can melee whats left well enough (or run away then reengage with more ammo).
Also agree with above, most of your battles should be ambushes anyway in which case you can delete most late game stacks no issue.

[Ashardalon]

Originally posted by Ronin75:

Originally posted by RuOne:

Simple - Gutter Runners

Doesn't work because of ammunition shortage. late game. If you go against one really good stack or two stacks, you will run out of ammo quickly, even if you have an engineer or two, in which case you loose your eshin only concept anyways.

so empty your ammo and retreat
then repeat

[Aas]

My approach:

Build the same skaven armies you would build normally but replace the infantry you would take with eshin units.

Clan Rats/Stormvermin become Triads/Deathrunner but also, or mainly Gutter Runners. Doesn't matter that they might be weaker in melee, they can skrimish, throw armour piercing projectiles while your true ranged units and monsters do the same job they always did.

If you need stronger armies make more armies.

Maybe replace the plague claw catapults (or artillery in general) you would normaly take with poision wind mortars (and other weaponteams), for weaponteams are more mobile and can keep up better with eshin shenaniganz.

Also eshin sorcerers are fun fun fun. Especially the spell that makes no damage but pushes enemies out. Has creative uses like freeing the door in sieges of blobs, rescuing heroes or ranged units etc etc.
But maybe don't take them alone for the other good magic of plague and ruin.

Warlock engineers can buff the Speed of your ranged units which includes your infantry of Gutter Runners and the weapon Teams. Nice.

[FizzMan]

They do have the tech Quality and Quantity that gives their rank 7 and higher units +6 melee and defense along with +10 leadership all around so concentration on high recruitment rank and stealthy armies is key.

[GamerHubert]

Well building around some stormvermin(Mors Contracts) or Eshin Triads+Fireteams just a small group who annoy the enemy from far away and some stormvermin/eshin triads to defend them. 6-8 Gutterrunner which kiting enemies around. 1Caster +Assasin Lord+4-5 Assasin heros(eating away enemie hero).