Empire Civil War makes no sense

[identity]

Such a stupid mechanic, tbqh. Like I don't have a problem with how it functions, necessarily, it's fairly easy to at least restore authority by returning lands and whatnot, but the whole idea that "Oh no, the Empire is getting destroyed by our enemies, lets... declare civil war and completely ruin any chance of solidarity and unified defense"... as if these guys didn't have enough problems on their hands, they're going to arbitrarily declare war on you too for no reason at all but artificial difficulty.

Also, makes no sense at all that Gelt would have this same mechanic. It should be limited to Reikland.

[p30pl3h4t3m3]

Empire civil war makes a lot of sense to me...

- look at the lore
- how kingdoms/empires worked in the past (including their conflicts & wars)
- gameplay, all races have their "civil war", but not the mechanics like empire.
- and last but not least... it is stupid humanity, we have problems, lets go to war...

and most empire players that cry how bad civil war is, you play it wrong in my eyes. just don't go the asap confederate or conquer everything route and play more "diplomatic". There is a reason why Reikland is one of the most profitable regions in the game. "Help" your allies to stay alive, and reconquer their land if it is lost and the faction is dead to "replace" them. It is more "get tall and have allies to divide & conquer" instead of "i am the only one" wide gameplay. at least it is the more or less only faction that can go this way.

[identity]

You're missing important points when you're comparing it to the real world.

England having a civil war and France taking advantage of it because they have a claim to the throne is altogether different than what is happening in this game.

You have Chaos that literally just wants to corrupt and destroy the world, Norsca and Beastmen with similar goals, Greenskins that want to kill and eat everyone, Counts that mostly want everyone dead just to raise them as slaves, and Skaven that just want to be kings of the ashes.

Meanwhile, Empire is mad because these things are happening to them and decide why not just plunge the entire empire into even more chaos because they're incapable of doing anything on their own, or working together, but only against the player because fighting each other would be ridiculous, huh? And why does Gelt even have this mechanic? He's not the emperor. This is even more problematic because most of the time they refuse to give you access so you can stop these problems.

And I didn't say it was hard to overcome, so your thinly veiled "learn to play" comment is irrelevant. The mechanic itself is fine, the reasons for it happening though make no sense. It's artificial difficulty with no practical application.

[Da_Higg]

Imperial authority is the measure of how much trust the elector counts have in your leadership - fail to protect parts of the Empire or engage in war with parts of it and people start to think "Hey, I could do a better job than that." and so they start a civil war in an attempt to oust you and take over.

To give a real world analogy it would be like the governor of California deciding that the President wasn't doing a good enough job and raising an army to lay siege to the White House with.

The thing to remember with the Empire is that it is not a singular unified country. It is a bunch of semi-independent states that nominally show fealty to the chosen emperor but will frequently ignore the emperor to do their own thing, up to an including declaring war on each other. The is pretty much how the Holy Roman Empire worked, including the infighting.

[FizzMan]

Thornes of Decay is literally going to fix this XD

Just be patient, plenty of other factions to play as in the meantime.

[bearfieldlee]

It is supposed to represent the various Electors being distracted by their own petty squabbles with each other over power and status, whilst ignoring the bigger picture. Very loreful and ultimately a reflection of real world politics. That isn't to say that it couldn't use a rework though.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Well, there are plenty of examples of politicians doing self destructive stuff like that in real life. So while it doesn't make sense logically (in game or in reality), it can be considered rather realistic.

Also from a lore perspective there was plenty of backstabbing and power plays from the elector counts and the emperor of the time that took place during the Skaven plague wars. Very nearly dooming the entire empire as a result. If the skaven didn't end up backstabbing each other as well it likely would have been the end of the empire.

Basically the emperor of the time and the elector counts couldn't see beyond their own interests, the fact that the empire as a whole could fall either didn't register with them, or they didn't care if it meant they would have to lose their own power to stop it (they rather put their heads down in the sand and pretended like everything was fine, hoping someone else would solve the issue).

Not to mention that unreliable information is a thing (doomsayers, false information made up by a rival, underestimating the issue, etc), so its not like they necessarily had a clear picture of the situation.

Originally posted by FizzMan:

Thornes of Decay is literally going to fix this XD

Just be patient, plenty of other factions to play as in the meantime.

I wouldn't have huge expectations if i were you. The empire is getting a race update (not a rework) in said DLC, race updates thus far has been rather minor updates (see the 3 race updates in SoC as examples).

[Many-Named]

The Empire doesn't have a satellite view like you do, they don't know how bad the situation is, news travel slowly in this renaissance world. And yes egos being what they are and human nature being what it is...I mean just look at covid and the covidiots. Tells you everything you need to know about humans.

[dulany67]

Originally posted by FizzMan:

Thornes of Decay is literally going to fix this XD

Just be patient, plenty of other factions to play as in the meantime.

Probably not.

[identity]

Originally posted by Many-Named:

The Empire doesn't have a satellite view like you do, they don't know how bad the situation is

They certainly know that they're being attacked on all sides, and the loss of elector counts.

Still, you make a good point, and while the mechanic may have been implemented with the idea that they wouldn't be aware of those things, the loss of those counts leads to the gamey aspect of being attacked by all of them anyway.

[ethorin101]

The main thing about Empire Civil War is that when those mechanics were made, the empire genuinely WAS safe... Like, Khazrak started over in Estalia and never did anything, Morghur I don't even remember where he started because he never did anything. Vlad and Isabella were there, Azhag was kind of there? But good odds he goes and fights dwarfs and probably loses that fight. Norsca's way over there and Chaos ain't showing up until the game's over.

These days, you've got Festus, Drycha, Vlad, Azhag, Grom, Heinrich, Kazrak, and the Changeling all at once and they are all going to be doing things, Morghur is GOING to be doing stuff and Ikit Claw might actually show up. These days, none of the Empire starts are actually safe or straightforward.

The biggest advantage the Empire has is that at least most of their enemies also hate each other.

[Cryten]

Originally posted by FizzMan:

Thornes of Decay is literally going to fix this XD

Just be patient, plenty of other factions to play as in the meantime.

I would avoid putting words into the devs mouths. They have not said they will fix imperial authority. They have only said there will be some reworks. How that turns out is yet to be seen.

[Atomsk]

TW:American Civil War

Marketing line... "correct past mistake"

[identity]

Originally posted by ethorin101:

The main thing about Empire Civil War is that when those mechanics were made, the empire genuinely WAS safe... Like, Khazrak started over in Estalia and never did anything, Morghur I don't even remember where he started because he never did anything. Vlad and Isabella were there, Azhag was kind of there? But good odds he goes and fights dwarfs and probably loses that fight. Norsca's way over there and Chaos ain't showing up until the game's over.

Yeah, that's kind of the main problem I'm getting at and why the Civil War just doesn't feel right.

These days, you've got Festus, Drycha, Vlad, Azhag, Grom, Heinrich, Kazrak, and the Changeling all at once and they are all going to be doing things, Morghur is GOING to be doing stuff and Ikit Claw might actually show up. These days, none of the Empire starts are actually safe or straightforward.

The biggest advantage the Empire has is that at least most of their enemies also hate each other.

Kinda/sorta. All the Chaos-esque factions end up liking each other, mostly because they're all attacking the same targets that they don't like. Khazrak, Wulfrik/Throgg, Festus, Changling, and Throt all tend to get along. Vlad, Heinrich and Azhag tend to get along, but they generally don't like chaos.

[identity]

Originally posted by Pookie101:

Never underestimate the human propensity to grab a tiny bit more power even if it will result in near future obliteration because all those people grabbing power think they are A. owed it and B. Can and will do a better job

Don't make excuses for forced artificial difficulty mechanics.

And if we're being fair, they should all declare war on each other too. Empirebowl.