CA should consider taking another look at daemons

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Far from being the horrors from beyond the pale like they are in the lore, the daemon roster is mostly kind of underwhelming outside of a few standout units. In fact, daemons are often outshined by mortal units. This might be the worst for Nurgle, where your mortal units are just straight up better versions of your daemons. This is the reason why many people say Festus is the true Nurgle playthrough, because he gives you easy access to your mortal units, while Ku'gath pushes you harder than any other daemon faction to recruit daemons.

[Aleera]

Originally posted by Tunguska:

Did you actually read the OP?

It's more about gameplay than looks. Why would anyone ever recruit Plaguebearers instead of Chaos Warriors, for example?

No armour, no shields, demonic instability so their health is functionally lower than it would seem. They have nothing going on for them.

They're tankier vs AP damage. They do a bit more damage. They're cheaper. They cause fear. Immunity to fear and terror. They do magic damage. Exalted variant have a high damage thrown weapon. They gain more research buffs I believe. There's a -20% upkeep follower for plaguebearers.

I'm not saying plaguebearers are better. But they do have qualities chaos warriors lack.

[Ashardalon]

for everyone except nurgle the demons have an obvious different niche then the mortals even if they can accomplish them
for nurgle, they kindof do do the same in the end
except that they give up armor in exchange for hp, wich for nurgle casters often giving regen is a superior stat
only downside is the lack of flyswarm giving them a missile resist that the warriors get from shield
so i wouldnt call them worse warriors, better even
but yes, kindof disappointing compared to what they should be in lore, and the same could be said to some extent about the others even if they have a niche

[Filthy Pollo 🐔]

Originally posted by Naram-Sin:

Far from being the horrors from beyond the pale like they are in the lore, the daemon roster is mostly kind of underwhelming outside of a few standout units. In fact, daemons are often outshined by mortal units. This might be the worst for Nurgle, where your mortal units are just straight up better versions of your daemons. This is the reason why many people say Festus is the true Nurgle playthrough, because he gives you easy access to your mortal units, while Ku'gath pushes you harder than any other daemon faction to recruit daemons.

In tabletop, daemons are balanced which are opposed to the lore

[Païtiti]

Plaguebearers are the exception. You picked literally the worst demon unit to make that example.

If demons in generally are being buffed their mortal chaos counterparts would have to be nerfed. Otherwise the whole race would become much too strong.

Further I think Chaos armies are suppose to consist of a mix of mortals and demons. Demons only armies are viable with their corresponding LL. An army of Bloodletters *cor can carry Skardbrand into late mid-game.

[Ashardalon]

think you meant to say bloodletters
since bloodthirsters not getting him to the endgame would be quite a disappointing avatar of khorne

[I LIVE AGAIN]

these races solely exist to promote miniatures, how come CA add something special when GW says SELL MY ♥♥♥♥

[Celery]

My opinion from a campaign perspective:

The only Daemon units that are underwhelming at the moment are Bloodletters and Plaguebearers because the same tier provides mortals that are straight up better at doing the frontline job.

Daemonettes and Blue/Pink Horrors have their uses alongside Chaos Warriors.

If it were up to me I'd give Bloodletters a little bit more speed so that are better at chasing down routing units. Right now they are ever so slightly faster than foot infantry on average but it isn't enough to chase them down. This would give them an edge and reason to field over Chaos Warriors.

Then I'd make Plaguebearers have more mass, right now they are smaller/lighter than Chaos Warriors. This would allow them to hold against cavalry where Chaos Warriors can't, again giving them a niche.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by Rianne:

Originally posted by Tunguska:

Did you actually read the OP?

It's more about gameplay than looks. Why would anyone ever recruit Plaguebearers instead of Chaos Warriors, for example?

No armour, no shields, demonic instability so their health is functionally lower than it would seem. They have nothing going on for them.

They're tankier vs AP damage. They do a bit more damage. They're cheaper. They cause fear. Immunity to fear and terror. They do magic damage. Exalted variant have a high damage thrown weapon. They gain more research buffs I believe. There's a -20% upkeep follower for plaguebearers.

I'm not saying plaguebearers are better. But they do have qualities chaos warriors lack.

What's more common to go up against, AP melee units or archers?

[Aleera]

Originally posted by Naram-Sin:

What's more common to go up against, AP melee units or archers?

Late game? AP melee unit's. Again, not saying plaguebearers are the better unit, I vastly prefer chaos warriors of Nurgle. And the chosen look ffing amazing.

Originally posted by Celery:

Then I'd make Plaguebearers have more mass, right now they are smaller/lighter than Chaos Warriors. This would allow them to hold against cavalry where Chaos Warriors can't, again giving them a niche.

Plaguebearers only have 150 Mass, Chaos warriors and chosen have 160 per model. Exalted plaguebearers have 175 mass per model.
Basic and Exalted plaguebearers have 100 model a unit, chosen have 80.

Both plaguebearer unit's technically already have more mass to stop cavalry then chosen do.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by Rianne:

Originally posted by Naram-Sin:

What's more common to go up against, AP melee units or archers?

Late game? AP melee unit's. Again, not saying plaguebearers are the better unit, I vastly prefer chaos warriors of Nurgle. And the chosen look ffing amazing.

Originally posted by Celery:

Then I'd make Plaguebearers have more mass, right now they are smaller/lighter than Chaos Warriors. This would allow them to hold against cavalry where Chaos Warriors can't, again giving them a niche.

Plaguebearers only have 150 Mass, Chaos warriors and chosen have 160 per model. Exalted plaguebearers have 175 mass per model.
Basic and Exalted plaguebearers have 100 model a unit, chosen have 80.

Both plaguebearer unit's technically already have more mass to stop cavalry then chosen do.

I'm pretty sure archers are more common throughout the game. As Ku'gath, after you deal with Ghorst, you're going to have High Elves to your west and Grand Cathay to your east. Beat the High Elves and you run right smack into dwarves and greenskins. Beat Grand Cathay and you run right smack into the Dark Elves. That's not even getting into the fact that you're inevitably going to have to deal with Grimgor barreling in out of the north unless you're very lucky.

[Ragatokk]

I also think demons should cost a little more and be a little stronger.

[Celery]

Originally posted by Rianne:

Originally posted by Celery:

Then I'd make Plaguebearers have more mass, right now they are smaller/lighter than Chaos Warriors. This would allow them to hold against cavalry where Chaos Warriors can't, again giving them a niche.

Plaguebearers only have 150 Mass, Chaos warriors and chosen have 160 per model. Exalted plaguebearers have 175 mass per model.
Basic and Exalted plaguebearers have 100 model a unit, chosen have 80.

Both plaguebearer unit's technically already have more mass to stop cavalry then chosen do.

These values are incredibly negligible when it comes to holding formation and absorbing impact, none of these will properly withstand a charge from cavalry/chariots.

Additionally Plaguebearer formations are a lot more loose than mortal units.

If you go test a charge into Plaguebearers vs Chaos Warriors you'll see how badly the Plaguebearers hold up. The armor also matters in charge defense when it comes to damage taken.

[Chozer]

Originally posted by Filthy Pollo 🐔:

Originally posted by Naram-Sin:

Far from being the horrors from beyond the pale like they are in the lore, the daemon roster is mostly kind of underwhelming outside of a few standout units. In fact, daemons are often outshined by mortal units. This might be the worst for Nurgle, where your mortal units are just straight up better versions of your daemons. This is the reason why many people say Festus is the true Nurgle playthrough, because he gives you easy access to your mortal units, while Ku'gath pushes you harder than any other daemon faction to recruit daemons.

In tabletop, daemons are balanced which are opposed to the lore

okay but by lore magic should also be a hell of a lot stronger, probably good thing its not

[Ashardalon]

lot more limited and dangerous too

[jonoliveira12]

Bloodletters were literally the unit with the most recorded kills, last year, from CA's stats.
Daemons are fine, you just need to learn how to use them.