Hybrid Units are boring.

[Cadwell]

A thing i felt while playing with Kislev, is that vast majority of their units manage to make the faction feel really "non-distinct" when it comes to play style.

Quoting "Reggie" from the Youtube Video
"I Used Chromosomes to Become God in Total Warhammer 3": If armies of other factions are diverse and well composed like a nice cake, Kislev is that same cake after it has been smashed into a sludge.

And my answer to that, was to use Sleds, Cavalry and Monsters to fill that void of entertainment i felt while playing as them. The DLC didn't even help that much at all.


Possible Solution : Kislev should get what other factions have, sub-variants of standard units that are more specialized/effective in single roles (anti-large,shield infantry, shielded units, etc etc...) but also mantain the hybrid units.

Hybrid units if they aren't much more specialized, just feel like "panick unit" that you can just recruit and hope for the best as they are 'jack of all trades master of none'.

Which i do get the appeal!
Especially as Kossars can be quite cost effective to recruit en-masse!

Streltsi and Ice Guards are perfect as they are, as they are specialized elite units.

In conclusion, making vast majority of the army hybrid units just hurts the tactical variety and enjoyment that it can be had with fighting as them and against them.

Am i the only one that feels this way?

[Lamp]

I wouldn't put it that way exactly, but yes. Kislev has never appealed to me. In part because thematically they look like a giant vanilla mishmash of cliche woodmen and evil 2010 Disney witches.

Like I thought the trailer videos for WH3/Kislev were neat, but never got the hype behind Kislev at all. Seemed like a bad choice making them into their own whole CA+GW freshly manufactured thing. It was an even worse choice basing RoC's campaign around them.

Cathay was in the same "not an actual fleshed out WH faction" place too and despite having dragons they can be insanely boring as well. Cathay is supposed to be *vast* and varied, it's neither of those things in WH3. They do, however, still appeal to me significantly more than a bunch of cold woodsman clones.

[Chuckawookie]

Originally posted by Cadwell:

Hybrid units if they aren't much more specialized, just feel like "panick unit" that you can just recruit and hope for the best as they are 'jack of all trades master of none'.

That's what Kislev is though. They live out in the frozen tundra and can only farm for a few months a year. Their cities and stanitsas are regularly destroy and must be rebuilt. They're a bunch of hardy people struggling to survive not just the elements, but recurrent daemon invasions, and are doing the best they can so their units should reflect that. The one thing they've managed to maintain over the years are the ice guard, thanks to the power of the Ice Queen, and the Gyrphon Legion/Winged Lancers, after the disaster at Praag. Thus your army should be filled with a bunch of regular guys (like Empire but tougher) with a few awesome cavalry that ride in to save the day.

[BenShinobi]

I personally enjoy Kislev but just a playstyle preference thing. Their army is a variation on having a strong front line, it's like an armoured hedgehog with the ability to put out a lot of damage in front of it with even your back line archers being a bit tougher, meaning that when the enemy hits your line/ flanks you there's added resilience so you can maintain the formation. It's for defensive players, for sure. You can build an army more around the offensive power of the bears, heavy cav & sleds but there's less variety & much more expensive, which is a shame.

I get the interactivity of the hybrid units is lower, because they can do much more than a typical unit without having to move at all, and I can see most people finding that boring. I find it's at it's most interesting in sieges, where the flexibility of your armoured kossars allows you engage in more of a 'fire & manoeuvre' approach through the corridors.

Otherwise, when the enemy breaks on your front line & starts retreating, I find it very satisfying moving out & hunting rallying units down.

In comparison I do find Cathay boring. They've got cool high-tier units but can take so long to get them you're stuck with very bland armies for ages. they need some additional low/mid-tier units that look exciting, like warrior monks. Maybe also small units of shugengan shock infantry/elite marksmen.

[Lamp]

Yeah, some hybrids I get/don't get put off by, but Kislev is like the hybrid nation. Just rampant homogenization, every unit is an everything unit. Makes their roster feel like a grey slurry of nothingness, (generally speaking.)

[Whatever100500]

Hybrid units are fine flavor-wise, but usually not cost-efficient.

[Cadwell]

Originally posted by Chuckawookie:

Originally posted by Cadwell:

That's what Kislev is though. They live out in the frozen tundra and can only farm for a few months a year. Their cities and stanitsas are regularly destroy and must be rebuilt. They're a bunch of hardy people struggling to survive not just the elements, but recurrent daemon invasions, and are doing the best they can so their units should reflect that. The one thing they've managed to maintain over the years are the ice guard, thanks to the power of the Ice Queen, and the Gyrphon Legion/Winged Lancers, after the disaster at Praag. Thus your army should be filled with a bunch of regular guys (like Empire but tougher) with a few awesome cavalry that ride in to save the day.

I do understand that.

Maybe i am just not into the playstile, but i'll give Kislev another go regardless! Maybe with new tacticts and more cavalry the playstile does improve a lot more!

[valky]

Possible solution: read a f*cking WARHAMMER LORE or ARMY BOOK (or White Dawi issue)

edit: if YT >> WARHAMMER/GW/knowledge .. then all hope is lost

edit2: possible solution: L2P

[Cadwell]

Originally posted by BenShinobi:

In comparison I do find Cathay boring. They've got cool high-tier units but can take so long to get them you're stuck with very bland armies for ages. they need some additional low/mid-tier units that look exciting, like warrior monks. Maybe also small units of shugengan shock infantry/elite marksmen.

Yeah, Cathay for a while in the early game does drag on quite a lot.
Most of their interesting units are locked until the buildings get to "Tier 3", and before that you are playing a 'Reskinned Empire' basically.

with Shadows of Change, they also got the short end of the stick because the Jade/Onyx Lion are basically a reskinned unit with different stats.

Bloody ridicolous.

[Cadwell]

Originally posted by valky:

Possible solution: read a f*cking WARHAMMER LORE or ARMY BOOK (or White Dawi issue)

edit: if YT >> WARHAMMER/GW/knowledge .. then all hope is lost

edit2: possible solution: L2P

First of all, i know Lore is an important aspect, but i shouldn't feel forced to read it to fully enjoy a faction.

Secondly, i played a lot of factions across the whole game, even Kislev, and i can handle the armies well. I just find the playstile boring.

Pheraps Kislev may not be a good fit for me, just like for someone else playing Bretonnia may be a pain due to the micromanaging of cavalry and the weak infantry units.

[valky]

Originally posted by Cadwell:

Originally posted by valky:

Possible solution: read a f*cking WARHAMMER LORE or ARMY BOOK (or White Dawi issue)

edit: if YT >> WARHAMMER/GW/knowledge .. then all hope is lost

edit2: possible solution: L2P

First of all, i know Lore is an important aspect, but i shouldn't feel forced to read it to fully enjoy a faction.

Secondly, i played a lot of factions across the whole game, even Kislev, and i can handle the armies well. I just find the playstile boring.

Pheraps Kislev may not be a good fit for me, just like for someone else playing Bretonnia may be a pain due to the micromanaging of cavalry and the weak infantry units.

That is an answer, I didn't expect.....
But CA did a F* good job, in designing Kislev, given, that there is only a semi-army book, some chitter&chatter, a few hints/and such, some slight nitpicks and a few givens in a few White-Dawi.....

I personally think, they are exceptional...but are hard to master - no offense. They have all the tools, but you need to use them properly - IMO, the hag DLC goes way outta, as it is insane in some ways (like stalk+sniping xbows by research)
Everyone got a gun/pistol - that can be utilized or researched to some crazy value.....the Tzar guard is on a different level, though

Heavy War-sled & Grom is another level of awesomeness.....if used properly. (Grom is pretty much a pin-point-arty-piece)

[attackmuffin]

what makes them special is that they have so many hybrid units. bears. what makes them distinct is their units do everything and they have bears. pretty much all the other armies are specialized units so having one faction where that isn't the case is what makes them different.

also bears, bears make them unique too

did i mention the bears that pull guys with guns meaning even their cavalry are hybrid

guns and bows with axes and spears is what makes them special and gives them a specialized army of doing it all.

[art_loots]

Originally posted by valky:

Originally posted by Cadwell:

First of all, i know Lore is an important aspect, but i shouldn't feel forced to read it to fully enjoy a faction.

Secondly, i played a lot of factions across the whole game, even Kislev, and i can handle the armies well. I just find the playstile boring.

Pheraps Kislev may not be a good fit for me, just like for someone else playing Bretonnia may be a pain due to the micromanaging of cavalry and the weak infantry units.

That is an answer, I didn't expect.....
But CA did a F* good job, in designing Kislev, given, that there is only a semi-army book, some chitter&chatter, a few hints/and such, some slight nitpicks and a few givens in a few White-Dawi.....

I personally think, they are exceptional...but are hard to master - no offense. They have all the tools, but you need to use them properly - IMO, the hag DLC goes way outta, as it is insane in some ways (like stalk+sniping xbows by research)
Everyone got a gun/pistol - that can be utilized or researched to some crazy value.....the Tzar guard is on a different level, though

Heavy War-sled & Grom is another level of awesomeness.....if used properly. (Grom is pretty much a pin-point-arty-piece)

lol this kislev is a parody of what Kislev was of GW. just add bears more bears don't matter it doesn't make sense.
it actually harms the lore, the excistance of consaltine doesn't help to be a parady of rasputin which isn't even funny aswell. not to forget they weren't even viable to be used in MP cause CA doesn't even know how to properly design kislev