Medusa changes are sad. Dark Elf main rant

[Casualfield]

Dark Elf main rant incoming.

tl;dr I feel like they just want to show off the new homing system (Medusa is the worst example 200 Projectile speed lmfao) and unit balance be damned.

So less damage but now it fires 5 times. The first projectile "hits" and all the units are sent flying and the other 4 projectiles just hit the ground and do nothing, fast moving targets same thing. So now the missile attack is worse more often and better almost never when that was only redeeming thing about the unit. Cavalry just runs circles around it but now with anti-large it at least hurts cav that attack it. 1v1 vs missile units it gets completely shut down due to the mechanics labeled "Hit reactions" & "Knock Interrupts". Even tier 1 units shut it down as arrows just cause it to never fire back because it gets animation locked and the range is bad. "Decent Melee Combatant" LOL, again, at the fault of an animation it's horrible at melee. So you try and be smart and mix it in with infantry? Well, it dives right past your units deep into theirs and gets stomped. Ai Usage Group is labeled "ranged_direct_highvalue" along with gunnery_wights, ikit_claw, bone_giant and witch_hunter. Non highvalue units are things like Tze_flamers, irondrakes, warp lighting cannon, ironblasters and handgunners. So the Ai won't use it to flank and instead just try and find the shortest path to hit. So with the above information you being vastly smarter than any Ai CA could implement, you use the Medusa to flank infantry and obliterate them or go after slow moving defenseless targets like artillery or routing units, aka you used it like it was labeled, ANTI INFANTRY. So why are we trying to make it do things it can't instead of just having it be great at killing infantry? I'm tired of "Hybrid" units trying to be jack of alls when they are just garbage of alls and no one uses these awesome units. Rant over, tell me what you think.

[fmalfeas]

In 2, there was very little reason to put your slaves anywhere other than Hag Graef, Har Ganeth, or Karond Kar. Maybe Quintex. Those provinces had the income and landmarks to outperform, and the development of them could be started VERY early. So you'd just funnel every slave there, and they'd make you almost as rich as late game high elves.

[Aneerah]

Цитата допису fmalfeas:

In 2, there was very little reason to put your slaves anywhere other than Hag Graef, Har Ganeth, or Karond Kar. Maybe Quintex. Those provinces had the income and landmarks to outperform, and the development of them could be started VERY early. So you'd just funnel every slave there, and they'd make you almost as rich as late game high elves.

Did you ever play a Dark Elf campaign past turn 50?

[fmalfeas]

Цитата допису Aneerah:

Цитата допису fmalfeas:

In 2, there was very little reason to put your slaves anywhere other than Hag Graef, Har Ganeth, or Karond Kar. Maybe Quintex. Those provinces had the income and landmarks to outperform, and the development of them could be started VERY early. So you'd just funnel every slave there, and they'd make you almost as rich as late game high elves.

Did you ever play a Dark Elf campaign past turn 50?

Many times. And it was utterly irrelevant to try to spread them around much beyond that. Those provided way more than enough income, and by refusing slaves anywhere else, I didn't have to run around putting out rebellion fires and could focus on painting the map.

[Aneerah]

I highly disagree.

[Fryskar]

Цитата допису fmalfeas:

Цитата допису Aneerah:

Did you ever play a Dark Elf campaign past turn 50?

Many times. And it was utterly irrelevant to try to spread them around much beyond that. Those provided way more than enough income, and by refusing slaves anywhere else, I didn't have to run around putting out rebellion fires and could focus on painting the map.

^

[drizzlynewt]

Цитата допису Aneerah:

You want to build public order and income buildings anyway.

I think this sentence right here encapsulates the inherent flaw in your thinking which has allowed you to live under the misguided impression that there's some sort of complexity to the Warhammer 2 slave system.

Provided you have enough slave surplus it is *always* better to build slave pens and roads than it is to build the income building and public order building. The slaves will provide more income than the income building. The slaves will, in fact, provide so much income that you could recruit a full stack army for every single province that has slaves and either have it garrisoning and resolving the public order itself *or* leave it outside of a settlement so that as rebellions spawn it can kill them resulting in more income from battles won, levelling up lords *and* providing more slaves in turn to continue fuelling your economy.

You talk about the difficulty in determining which province to build barracks in so that you can recruit level 9 masters locally... Well the answer is simply "Whatever province is local that has four regions". It's not a puzzle. If you're in the empire and want to have a base from which to pump out level 9 masters do so in Reikland. Problem solved.

You're acting like these are issues which need to be thought about and considered... They don't. There's a simple solution and it's the same every time.

[Aneerah]

Цитата допису drizzlynewt:

Цитата допису Aneerah:

You want to build public order and income buildings anyway.

I think this sentence right here encapsulates the inherent flaw in your thinking which has allowed you to live under the misguided impression that there's some sort of complexity to the Warhammer 2 slave system.

Provided you have enough slave surplus it is *always* better to build slave pens and roads than it is to build the income building and public order building. The slaves will provide more income than the income building. The slaves will, in fact, provide so much income that you could recruit a full stack army for every single province that has slaves and either have it garrisoning and resolving the public order itself *or* leave it outside of a settlement so that as rebellions spawn it can kill them resulting in more income from battles won, levelling up lords *and* providing more slaves in turn to continue fuelling your economy.

You talk about the difficulty in determining which province to build barracks in so that you can recruit level 9 masters locally... Well the answer is simply "Whatever province is local that has four regions". It's not a puzzle. If you're in the empire and want to have a base from which to pump out level 9 masters do so in Reikland. Problem solved.

You're acting like these are issues which need to be thought about and considered... They don't. There's a simple solution and it's the same every time.

You should remove your foot from your mouth before you speak. At no point did I say it was difficult, just that it required more effort, and that there is an element of risk versus reward. You also talk about how I'm wrong about what buildings to build, but you fail to specify which game you're talking about. I was talking about WH3, in which you undoubtedly want to build the income building.

It's funny how you talk about how you can farm rebellions to fuel your economy, yet fail to realize how that adds complexion. It's like you're allergic to the idea of nuance. And optimization.

[ArchAnge1LT]

More dark elves bugs:

Black Arks not applying their aura/recruitment when docked

Black Arks not applying their recruit rank bonus to themselves

Names of Power dilemmas not showing what the titles do as of the latest patch -- this applies to all dilemma traits/titles far as I can tell, such as Eltharion's Mistwalker titles

Revered Names of Power in particular can still be completely useless based on RNG and most people reload when that happens (shameless plug for mod to fix that issue)

Skills (like Morathi's Sorceress bonus) and buildings (like the tier 3 Medicinal Plant building) still do not give global recruit rank bonuses to heroes recruited from a Black Ark

Channeling Stance does not allow replenishment in neutral territory (whether you have Military Access or not), just owned/allied/hostile

[Aneerah]

Цитата допису ArchAnge1LT:

More dark elves bugs:

Black Arks not applying their aura/recruitment when docked

Black Arks not applying their recruit rank bonus to themselves

Names of Power dilemmas not showing what the titles do as of the latest patch -- this applies to all dilemma traits/titles far as I can tell, such as Eltharion's Mistwalker titles

Revered Names of Power in particular can still be completely useless based on RNG and most people reload when that happens (shameless plug for mod to fix that issue)

Skills (like Morathi's Sorceress bonus) and buildings (like the tier 3 Medicinal Plant building) still do not give global recruit rank bonuses to heroes recruited from a Black Ark

Channeling Stance does not allow replenishment in neutral territory (whether you have Military Access or not), just owned/allied/hostile

Do you know if it's a bug or intended that AI black arks aren't given to the player after confederation?

[drizzlynewt]

Цитата допису Aneerah:

It's funny how you talk about how you can farm rebellions to fuel your economy, yet fail to realize how that adds complexion. It's like you're allergic to the idea of nuance. And optimization.

Definition of complex; Difficult to understand for being intricate or involved; complicated.

Which bit of "you can farm rebellions to fuel your economy" do you think is complex?

OK, so you're saying in Warhammer 3 you'd "always" want to build the economy and public order buildings as if that's a problem with the system in 3? But in 2 *you always want to build the slave pens and roads*. So in both games you have buildings you always want to build... So why is one system "complex" and the other lacking that same complexity? They both - in your estimation - have similarly rigid "this is what you always build" structures.

Difference is that the Warhammer 2 mechanic provides you with more income than you could possibly ever need while the Warhammer 3 mechanic does not provide you with the same ridiculous surplus, meaning that you can't just spam infinite numbers of armies and so you have to pay more consideration to how many armies you want to make, what the composition of those armies is, how many territories you can effectively defend with the forces available to you, whether or not you can expand, etc.

[Aneerah]

Цитата допису drizzlynewt:

Цитата допису Aneerah:

It's funny how you talk about how you can farm rebellions to fuel your economy, yet fail to realize how that adds complexion. It's like you're allergic to the idea of nuance. And optimization.

Definition of complex; Difficult to understand for being intricate or involved; complicated.

Which bit of "you can farm rebellions to fuel your economy" do you think is complex?

OK, so you're saying in Warhammer 3 you'd "always" want to build the economy and public order buildings as if that's a problem with the system in 3? But in 2 *you always want to build the slave pens and roads*. So in both games you have buildings you always want to build... So why is one system "complex" and the other lacking that same complexity? They both - in your estimation - have similarly rigid "this is what you always build" structures.

Difference is that the Warhammer 2 mechanic provides you with more income than you could possibly ever need while the Warhammer 3 mechanic does not provide you with the same ridiculous surplus, meaning that you can't just spam infinite numbers of armies and so you have to pay more consideration to how many armies you want to make, what the composition of those armies is, how many territories you can effectively defend with the forces available to you, whether or not you can expand, etc.

You should stop seeing things in black and white. I said it adds complexion. That's a vague statement, because it's hard to measure exactly how impactful it is. I didn't say "WH3 isn't complex and WH2 is". I choose my words carefully, so stop trying to straw man me.

If you actually read my earlier message, you'll see how I explain some of the differences. Another one is that Masters and Assassins had a purpose outside of just combat in WH2 with its slave system. Since they removed that in WH3, I had hoped they give them some other features that made you want them, like how Handmaidens of Alarielle have several different skill trees for different roles. Alas, they didn't replace their previous role with anything. They're both just fighters, and the assassins isn't particularly good. The Death Hag is the same, and suddenly the faction is left with 1/4 heroes that add anything meaningful to your experience.

If you think you can't spam out an absurd amount of armies in WH3, then you're probably not playing very effectively, as I find myself able to spam army after army in the mid-late game. Shades armies, dragon and hydra doomstacks... Those deliberations you describe also apply to early game Dark Elf in WH2, it's not like you're instantly rich.

[Falaris]

Цитата допису Filthy Pollo 🐔:

Your rant will be destroyed by future hotfixes.

Yep, medusas' slow projectiles were patched out today.

[Da_Higg]

You say assassins have no purpose, do you not use them for their hero actions? I think everyone of be Dark Elf armies has an assassin going ahead and assaulting army/garrison.

Hopefully when the Dark Elves get some DLC focus they will get more refinements to how the rest of their race plays

[Aneerah]

Цитата допису Da_Higg:

You say assassins have no purpose, do you not use them for their hero actions? I think everyone of be Dark Elf armies has an assassin going ahead and assaulting army/garrison.

Hopefully when the Dark Elves get some DLC focus they will get more refinements to how the rest of their race plays

I can't say I have ever felt the need to use assassins for that, no. I don't really recruit assassins at all in WH3. I get the building (unless I play as Morathi) for some Death Hags, but assassins just aren't worth it to me. At least Death Hags provide army replenishment (though I mostly get them simply because I like them). As far as hero actions go, the ones I find (potentially) impactful are halt movement and steal technology. Add secure influence for High Elves.

I do agree with the second paragraph, though. Let's hope CA is kind to our damaged goth elves ^^

[drizzlynewt]

Цитата допису Aneerah:

Цитата допису drizzlynewt:

Definition of complex; Difficult to understand for being intricate or involved; complicated.

Which bit of "you can farm rebellions to fuel your economy" do you think is complex?

OK, so you're saying in Warhammer 3 you'd "always" want to build the economy and public order buildings as if that's a problem with the system in 3? But in 2 *you always want to build the slave pens and roads*. So in both games you have buildings you always want to build... So why is one system "complex" and the other lacking that same complexity? They both - in your estimation - have similarly rigid "this is what you always build" structures.

Difference is that the Warhammer 2 mechanic provides you with more income than you could possibly ever need while the Warhammer 3 mechanic does not provide you with the same ridiculous surplus, meaning that you can't just spam infinite numbers of armies and so you have to pay more consideration to how many armies you want to make, what the composition of those armies is, how many territories you can effectively defend with the forces available to you, whether or not you can expand, etc.

You should stop seeing things in black and white. I said it adds complexion. That's a vague statement, because it's hard to measure exactly how impactful it is. I didn't say "WH3 isn't complex and WH2 is". I choose my words carefully, so stop trying to straw man me.

If you actually read my earlier message, you'll see how I explain some of the differences. Another one is that Masters and Assassins had a purpose outside of just combat in WH2 with its slave system. Since they removed that in WH3, I had hoped they give them some other features that made you want them, like how Handmaidens of Alarielle have several different skill trees for different roles. Alas, they didn't replace their previous role with anything. They're both just fighters, and the assassins isn't particularly good. The Death Hag is the same, and suddenly the faction is left with 1/4 heroes that add anything meaningful to your experience.

If you think you can't spam out an absurd amount of armies in WH3, then you're probably not playing very effectively, as I find myself able to spam army after army in the mid-late game. Shades armies, dragon and hydra doomstacks... Those deliberations you describe also apply to early game Dark Elf in WH2, it's not like you're instantly rich.

"That's a vague statement" you say, about something you wrote, before going on to stress that you "choose your words carefully". So you carefully chose the words to be vague about something? Truly you are a wordsmith.

"It's hard to measure how impactful it is", you say. Tell me, what bit of "you can farm rebellions" are you finding it difficult to measure the impact of? I am entirely confident that I'll be able to elucidate the matter for you if you can identify the bit you're struggling with for me.

So masters and assassins had a purpose outside of just combat in Warhammer 2? Yeah, they do in Warhammer 3 as well. Assassins can assassinate characters. Masters can stimulate growth which, coupled with the ability to rush construction with slaves, can allow for provinces to be built up much faster... This would be that "optimisation" you were talking about earlier... Guess you're "allergic" to it too? I also believe they can both have an impact on public order which would allow it to be managed in that way meaning that the public order building you "always" have to build is not, in fact, always necessary.

I think you can't spam out essentially infinite amounts of armies in Warhammer 3 whereas, with Dark Elves, you could in Warhammer 2. Maybe late game you get to a point where you have far more armies than you need... Go long enough into any campaign and you'll reach that point though. There's always going to be a tipping point where you, in terms of territory owned and finances, are sufficiently large that no AI will be capable of competing. It becomes a question of how soon you reach that point (after which, if we're blunt, the game ceases being fun).

You're correct that early game Dark Elves in Warhammer 2 had the deliberations I listed. It's just that early game for them, (provided you were properly optimised), would end extremely early on in the campaign. Certainly if you were Malekith you could have it all essentially sewn up without even having to expand beyond your starting province.

Essentially what I'm saying is that the point at which you reach that tipping point of being able to absolutely steamroll all opposition - at which point all challenge and complexity of a campaign evaporates - takes significantly longer to reach in Warhammer 3 and never reaches the same point of complete banality that it does in 2.