Dark Elf LL Teir list (3.1) (and related opinions on DE's)

[Ire]

Warning, Long winded post here.

So I decided to tier-rank the DE lords, with the new 3.1 economy in mind. I consider DE's to be one of my main factions, even if I haven't played them much in game 3 - I much preferred the old game 2 slave mechanic, even if it was overpowered, and wish they had nerfed it instead of this boring system we ended up with, but at least the new update made its mid-late game collapse more manageable, even if its overall a nerf. Getting back into them now I decided to make a tier list.

Preamble:

All the DE lords are actually very good. Very strong faction. Amazing units, Large roster, Incredible replenishment, fun toys.... they are a powerhouse faction and can blitz early game like few others. Even the "worst" DE lords is still in the grand scheme of things an A to S tier lord. All of the following is my opinion, based on my playstyle, and may not be the same as other peoples.

So there is plenty of posts about how the DE economy works, and if the 3.1 patch made it better or worse (both), so I wont get into that too much - with the exception of noting that with the diktat's no longer having a global cooldown, you can sell slaves for 1500 gold in every province every turn, which can account for a very large chunk of your income... providing you have a lot of slaves. Thus, my writeup below overvalues port settlements, regarding landlocked towns that don't have a resource or landmark as essentially trash. This is not entirely true, as having *some* of these do allow more slave sell diktats (if you have enough slave income, which means you've got a lot of ports/blarks/assassins), and can be used for industry if you already have a decent slave income, or spamming hero capacity. But the need to spam barracks for bonuses to global recruitment (doesn't work for DE - no global recruitment) or the need for having recruitment provinces (blarks) basically don't exist for DE's.

Global control and growth are also highly valued - more control means more growth/gold diktats and more growth is especially good for DE's who can bypass construction times. I will also point out that every assassin is +10-25 slaves/turn and blarks are 0-40/turn. These can be very significant sources of slave income, if spammed. As higher difficulties give you more and more control penalties you need to eek out every single point of control you can.

Finally, One aspect of the game that seems to be frequently overlooked, is post-battle replenishment is partially calculated off of casualties captured post battle. And the DE's can buff this stat more than any other faction - so while they can sometimes take a lot of damage in a fight, they can often post-battle heal some stupendous amounts - if you remember to put skills and buildings into it. This can be key to maximizing slave gain, as better post battle healing = more aggression/fights = more slaves.


On to the rankings.


Morathi is the clear winner here. Her slaanesh corruption gives her an additional +5 order and 15% slave income (which alone is 3x better than Hellebron's and Lokhir's factions +5%). This bonus control is quite important, allowing her to have to click the control diktat far less often, letting her spam the growth and gold options. Her two downsides is needing to spread the corruption (which isn't that big a deal imo) and the fact that you cant recruit assassins at tier 3, only tier 4 (remember every assassin gives you +10 slave income, and is a good way to get slave income out of landlocked towns... except she can only get them from capitols now. This could end up being a significant reduction in slave gain compared to other DE's faction's ability to spam assassin capacity buildings). She also has one of the better starting landmarks, and can get on the HE donut the fastest. Her access to Daemonettes is nice (a larger roster is always nice). She has perhaps the best global buff skills out of all the DE LL's. She is tied with Malekith and Hellebron for least amount of pleasant climates at 3, however.


Lokhir Fellheart comes in 2nd, in my opinion. He has the most unique start, being way off in Cathay, and its a good start. Cathayans, VCoast, VCounts, Skaven, all make easy early game prey for him, and the Cathayan major river systems being blark traversable combined with his ability to get an ark every port instead of every 25t, means you'll have far, far more Blarks than any other DE faction. You start with one and can recruit a 2nd on turn 1! Now that blarks can provide slaves, even if you don't fully upgrade them they are a good source of slave income, boosting your economy significantly. Combine this with his personal and blark armies being very cheap to maintain, you can start sailing the world and taking coastal provinces at an exponentially fast rate. BTW - that blark building that provides bonus's to post battle stacks - Want to sack faction capitols for 500k+ gold?. His early game army is very strong, with -50% upkeep to the fantastic corsair units and they cause fear. He himself is quite good, getting a regen effect helm at lvl 12, and starts with a death caster, you should steamroll everything with his main army very easily, with the exception of maybe villich (who is tough for everyone in the area). I also enjoy him a lot because he gets to fight something different - with all the other DE's fighting lizardmen, norsca, and high elves its nice to have this option. He also gets a Karond Kar confederation quest like Rakarth, although it is loyalty bugged, so be prepared for instant defections. His only downside is lack of allies/trade partners early on - might be worthwhile to send a blark over to naggarond to say hi. He has a nice unique rite, worth spamming as often as possible. Its also worth noting that his climates are diffrent from the naggarothi DE's - he has 5 suitable climates instead of 3, only upstaged by Rakarth.


Third is Hellebron. Her blood voyage mechanic gives her bonus's to her faction's focus units, global loyalty, control and leadership, and is easy to re-issue whenever the bonus's start turning into penalties. The bonus control is great. Blood voyages do a lot to keep the high elves on the donut busy until your ready and provide a nice occasional influx of cash. She starts in Naggarond like Malekith, but unlike Malekith doesn't have to worry nearly as much as the port-less backfield, and can start expanding into more profitable provinces (like slavers bay and spiteful peaks, two of the best DE provinces in the game) much quicker and focus on killing Alith Anar earlier (and easier with your witch/sister units). You can no longer "poach" units from the death night voyages like in game 2, as they now spawn as an allied force, but you *can* use war coordination with them to try to optimize their aggression. Like Malekith the new sea lanes give her more options for getting around. Plus, I enjoy witch elves/sisters of slaughter units, although they may not be fun for some people. She starts with no blark so it will be a bit slower on getting those up and running, but should be one of the economically stronger DE factions early game. She is, however, tied with Morathi and Malekith for least amount of pleasant climates (3)


Fourth I think would go to Malus Darkblade. First off, Malus is generally regarded to be the single strongest LL in the game, One of the "One man doomstacks". And while you have to pay Malekith for the potions, the bonus's for doing so are extreme - significant global bonus's to growth, -corruption and loyalty, and you can turn those off anytime to make him go into He-Man mode and by them back as soon as your done. His starting position can be tricky, as its relatively exposed, but he also has access to plentiful ports. He does have a "split start" and its up to you which way to go with that, but if you can defend it its likely worth keeping. Also will receive nice bonus missions from the whispers mechanic, boosting slaves and gold further. To be honest I really miss his game 2 southlands starting position. Having a 3rd lord start along the north edge of the world isn't as fun as getting in on the southlands thunderdome would be, but he's not quite as railroaded into what he has to do like the other Naggarothi DE's. He has a hero recruit rite that sometimes can be quite good, but its dependant on how well malekith is doing, and a very expensive army spawn rite with a 50t cooldown... that honestly ive never bothered to use... but it could be fun. You lose the loyalty rite however, so watch your possession meter if your having loyalty issues. He also provides the least amount of global bonus's through skills out of all DE LL's, all of his skills are for himself or his army. Of note is he has 5 suitable climates unlike the other Naggarothi DE's 3.


Fifth is Rakarth. He has no relevant global bonus's. No slave bonus's. He starts in an area with suprisingly few ports, and will likely end up fighting a lot of lizardmen - tougher than average opponents for early game DE's. But you should be able to conquor all of lustria in fairly short order. What he does bring to the table is the very powerful beast pens instant-recruitment roster. This is a great mechanic to maintain a steady supply of truly expendible units like harpies (which are quite good, but shouldnt really be a tier 3 unit), and a way to get very good monsters very early. His faction also doesnt receive vigor penalties while raiding, which is quite nice, and he himself has a "replenish in forign territory" skill, useful as you will be outside of blark range for a good chunk of the early/mid game, although he has few "global" buff skills. He doesnt start with a blark so it will be slow going for those. His unique rite is actually useful, and is nice to spam as often as possible). He also has a confederaton quest, but it seems to be loyalty-bugged, and you'll be unlikely to actually keep anything of value when you trigger it between all the armies rebelling and alith anar. If it does work, you end up with what is, in my opinion, the best city for de's - slavers bay. I miss his game 2 start, where he could terrorize the empire, but at least hes not in naggarond like everyone else (except lokhir). Of special note is he has the most suitable climates out of all DE's, with 6.


Last place is Malekith, the Beggar King. He himself is a very powerful lord, but with no bonus's to control or slaves, no fancy mechanics, poor access to ports early on, a hostile backfield you need to deal with, tied for least amount of suitable climates, tied for slowest blark gain, means you'll usually have the slowest start of all DE's. His diplomatic bonus is nice, potentially allowing for easier DE trade and confederations, so that may make playthoughs quite inconsistent based on other DE faction performance. His upkeep reduction trait helps a little, but its mostly for your starting tier 1-2 units - Which while are very, very good for tier 1-2 units, they are, in the end, not the fun cool stuff that your later tiers provide (although he still gives -25% off of black guard, which is a tier 4 unit). This does help mitigate his poorish economy a little, if you like spamming basic unit stacks, which can work for quite a while. It also stacks with blark upkeep reduction, giving you some almost-free garrisons for them. All of this, to me, feels like a consolation prize for having to spend your early game marching inland into portless territory to deal with Valkia, Mung, Taurox, Grombrindal, Khatep, Ogres, and Skaven, almost all of which is out of blark assistance range (not that you even start with one) There isn't even much in the way of good landmarks in that direction, although you might be able to find the time to take Hag graef back from Taurox or ninja Grond before Hellebron for a couple of good cities, but then having to deal with Alith Anar, who often is quite a pain in the butt, as your bleakswords/darkshards will struggle with what he brings. Once you've accomplished all that, your actually in a good position, but it can take quite a while, and the whole time you'll have the least amount of slaves and control out of all the other DE options. Naggarond city does have a +2 global control tier 5 landmark, for when you finally get there. He has the most amount of quest gear, which can make him even more personally powerful, and thats more early game fights you can teleport to, and has some good global buff skills.


As a DE wishlist, aside from the usual bugfix's that plague most factions, what I would like to see is Malekith's faction buffed somehow to make up for its positional shortcomings. Maybe some juicyier landmarks or something. or perhaps a force confederation mechanic. Something so that the faction leader isn't the worst choice. I would like to see the "dodge" physical resist on witch/sister/assassin units changed into a ward save... it never made a lot of sense that they could dodge a sword but not a magic sword, and the Brettonia buff changed their phys resist to ward save, so share the love. I would like to see harpies be a lower tier unit, its crazy you cant get them before tier three outside of Rakarth - at tier 3 the competition for army slots means its a tough sell for what is actually a good unit... just not as good as scourgerunners, or gs shades, or doomfire warlocks etc.

I also would like to see at least one of the Naggarond lords moved. Having 5/6 of your lords fighting the same enemies - lz, norsca, he, is kinda samey. I miss Rakarths old start where he could terrorize the empire, but one guy in Lustria isn't bad, and he makes sense... and they needed to give albion to Belakor, so whatever. I would like to see Malus moved back down to the southlands maybe... getting in on that southlands rumble would be a lot of fun, like he had in game 2. Drop Morathi's assassin requirement from tier 4 back down to tier 3 like everyone else. Remove the slave pens control penalty and/or buff other forms of control (why would having dedicated facilities for managing your unruly slaves give you a control penalty?).

As a postscript, I will laugh at CA for removing the spreadsheet from DE's because its "too complicated" then giving it to Chorfs, then changing DE diktats so that having the slave spreadsheet would actually have been really useful for them, instead of having to click on every province every turn. Also for saying they fixed the 0 loyalty on confed bug when its still here. (at least for Rakarth's confed quest)

Finally, CA, can we please have climates listed in faction selection? pretty please?

[Ire]

Alright, I just tested lokhir, his confederation quest is also loyalty bugged, fyi.

[Scr(A)tch]

Ire a écrit :

Alright, I just tested lokhir, his confederation quest is also loyalty bugged, fyi.

Regular confederation is bugged as well.

It doesn't really matter. You can recruit someone and give them all the units of the confederated lord, then when they rebel turn them into some gold (also works with lords you get in your pool).

Or you can exploit items to raise their loyalty to acceptable levels. Just equip/unequip until it hits 2 or so.

[TeM[Dark]LaR]

Hello guy, Does anyone have the same problems as me, I play as Morathi and the fellow Dark Elves Legendary Lord didn't deploy any black arks, They have done the ritual of mathlann many times, but they are not even deploy it, they have port, they buy a lot land army but no every single black ark except those LL have black arks in start. If anyone know how to fix it please tell me

[Ire]

TeMDarkLaR a écrit :

Hello guy, Does anyone have the same problems as me, I play as Morathi and the fellow Dark Elves Legendary Lord didn't deploy any black arks, They have done the ritual of mathlann many times, but they are not even deploy it, they have port, they buy a lot land army but no every single black ark except those LL have black arks in start. If anyone know how to fix it please tell me

A quick search on the community bugfix github page does turn this up as a validated bug/issue - as far back as nov.

Always a shame to see modders doing the dev's job for them. CA should just hire the bugfix team.

https://github.com/chadvandy/cbfm_wh3/issues/626

[Prisoner 76561197992841073]

Malekith the Witch King: Because, you know, being the High King of the Dark Elves and a spellcaster totally means he's the strongest. Who cares about actual gameplay mechanics or anything?

Morathi: Because being a sorceress and having unique transformation abilities automatically makes you a powerhouse. Forget about strategy or balance, right?

Hellebron: Yeah, she's a melee fighter with some fancy Blood Voyage thing.

Malus Darkblade: Oh, look, a cursed Dark Elf with a demon inside him. How original. But hey, being cursed means you get all the combat bonuses and access to both Dark Elf and Chaos units. Talk about a balanced character!

Lokhir Fellheart: Oh, a pirate! Because being a pirate automatically gives you an edge in battles. And don't forget those amazing Black Ark abilities. So groundbreaking.

Rakarth: Beastmaster, monster tamer, yada yada. Who needs regular units when you can focus on monsters?

[Ire]

76561197992841073 a écrit :

Malekith the Witch King: Because, you know, being the High King of the Dark Elves and a spellcaster totally means he's the strongest. Who cares about actual gameplay mechanics or anything?

Morathi: Because being a sorceress and having unique transformation abilities automatically makes you a powerhouse. Forget about strategy or balance, right?

Hellebron: Yeah, she's a melee fighter with some fancy Blood Voyage thing.

Malus Darkblade: Oh, look, a cursed Dark Elf with a demon inside him. How original. But hey, being cursed means you get all the combat bonuses and access to both Dark Elf and Chaos units. Talk about a balanced character!

Lokhir Fellheart: Oh, a pirate! Because being a pirate automatically gives you an edge in battles. And don't forget those amazing Black Ark abilities. So groundbreaking.

Rakarth: Beastmaster, monster tamer, yada yada. Who needs regular units when you can focus on monsters?

I think your getting morathi and malus half confused there.

[TeM[Dark]LaR]

Ire a écrit :

TeMDarkLaR a écrit :

Hello guy, Does anyone have the same problems as me, I play as Morathi and the fellow Dark Elves Legendary Lord didn't deploy any black arks, They have done the ritual of mathlann many times, but they are not even deploy it, they have port, they buy a lot land army but no every single black ark except those LL have black arks in start. If anyone know how to fix it please tell me

A quick search on the community bugfix github page does turn this up as a validated bug/issue - as far back as nov.

Always a shame to see modders doing the dev's job for them. CA should just hire the bugfix team.

https://github.com/chadvandy/cbfm_wh3/issues/626

Thank you guy, we should wait for the community bug fix for it. CA didn't pay their most attention to this game as they do in the previous Warhammer 2, the AI in warhammer 3 are rubbish.

[Balkoth]

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

Besides, she can't get rid of other corruptions as fast as the others as she can only improve hers.

Army presence decreases others too, possibly heroes as well, forget exactly. It was rarely ever an issue, especially with her initial +5 and control buildings from 1.

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

Hum, yes by default. And you don't need to achieve a domination victory before that to overcome them.

You do need to conquer 70 settlements for Long Victory :)

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

All buildings (and units) are different in cost and building time, so who's to say if a -20% discount makes HE any better?

Because they feel roughly equal at the start and then High Elves keep improving over time.

Yes, if it was something stupid like all Dark Elf buildings cost 1g and took 1 turn to make then the -20% discount for High Elves wouldn't matter, but it doesn't feel like that in play.

Ire a écrit :

This is just my opinion, but I think that DE's *should* have one of the strongest, if not the strongest, economy in the world, for a few reasons.

Indeed. And this is how they worked in WH2, they had no infrastructure bonuses so they just threw money at everything (including Black Arks).

Ire a écrit :

I personally think its not as good as many other factions global recruitment, especially towards late game. Dont get me wrong, I love blarks and think they are cool and worthwhile.... but they are hella expensive.

Also indeed. My Kislev campaign with 25+ Global Recruitment slots recruiting an entire army of rank 5 units in 1 turn anywhere on the map was better than Black Arks. Black Arks are still cool and useful. But they're not an unqualified bonus.

Ire a écrit :

The old game 2 system was certainly OP, but my argument is it could have been nerfed and brought in line.

I figured they'd remove Assassin stacking (justified), Master slave decline (understandable, probably a mistake to add), and tweak the decline/income numbers to compensate for lower supply lines, yeah.

Ire a écrit :

that in the end now makes me spend a couple minutes every turn clicking diktat buttons because I have to select each province individually instead of having a nice handy spreadsheet like the chorfs.

Yes, I find this very irritating to do every turn.

Ire a écrit :

(Like I said, someone like malekith is a very powerful battlefield unit, but his faction is the least suited for the 3.1 economy).

If they restore control buildings and make his Motivated by Fear skill not completely suck and be like half as powerful as Crone's semi equivalent skill he'd be significantly better. And they need to fix the t1 Industry building for everyone.

Ire a écrit :

I personally think the economy has been overnerfed and now they are a mediocre economic faction given the above, but they are playable and I can still have fun with them.

Morathi's doing pretty well still. Others are okay on lower difficulty levels with less control problems. They do feel less fluid and less powerful, though.

In WH2 they were slow to start but became a powerhouse once you finished setting everything up and managed your empire correctly.

In WH3 they were pedal to the metal right out of the gate initially.

Now they're just kind of...eh.

[Scr(A)tch]

Balkoth a écrit :

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

Besides, she can't get rid of other corruptions as fast as the others as she can only improve hers.

Army presence decreases others too, possibly heroes as well, forget exactly. It was rarely ever an issue, especially with her initial +5 and control buildings from 1.

Morathi leaves a nice trail of corruption, can't say the same of other lords. And no, you can only raise your corruption (with a -5 initially if the other one is at 100) and wait for the -5, heroes and armies don't clean anything (Death Hags add corruption instead).

Balkoth a écrit :

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

Hum, yes by default. And you don't need to achieve a domination victory before that to overcome them.

You do need to conquer 70 settlements for Long Victory :)

You can set the crisis to only trigger after it, but it's an option. 70 is reasonable anyway, Domination victory is a waste of time.

Balkoth a écrit :

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

All buildings (and units) are different in cost and building time, so who's to say if a -20% discount makes HE any better?

Because they feel roughly equal at the start and then High Elves keep improving over time.

Yes, if it was something stupid like all Dark Elf buildings cost 1g and took 1 turn to make then the -20% discount for High Elves wouldn't matter, but it doesn't feel like that in play.

It's cherrypicking nevertheless. DE have all sort of improvements in their tech tree as well and different mechanics.

I do regret their lack of global recruitment. On the other hand, you don't need any recruitment province and don't pay extra to recruit with BA but get a huge upkeep discount on them, as well as recruiting max rank fairly easy. You just need to be more deliberate as there's no emergency recruitment outside of RoRs.

[Prisoner 76561197992841073]

Ire a écrit :

76561197992841073 a écrit :

Malekith the Witch King: Because, you know, being the High King of the Dark Elves and a spellcaster totally means he's the strongest. Who cares about actual gameplay mechanics or anything?

Morathi: Because being a sorceress and having unique transformation abilities automatically makes you a powerhouse. Forget about strategy or balance, right?

Hellebron: Yeah, she's a melee fighter with some fancy Blood Voyage thing.

Malus Darkblade: Oh, look, a cursed Dark Elf with a demon inside him. How original. But hey, being cursed means you get all the combat bonuses and access to both Dark Elf and Chaos units. Talk about a balanced character!

Lokhir Fellheart: Oh, a pirate! Because being a pirate automatically gives you an edge in battles. And don't forget those amazing Black Ark abilities. So groundbreaking.

Rakarth: Beastmaster, monster tamer, yada yada. Who needs regular units when you can focus on monsters?

I think your getting morathi and malus half confused there.

you might be right

[Balkoth]

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

And no, you can only raise your corruption (with a -5 initially if the other one is at 100) and wait for the -5, heroes and armies don't clean anything (Death Hags add corruption instead).

Nah man.

https://imgur.com/a/hiyzvcE

See how there's -3 in Sartosa from the presence of the army? She doesn't have explicit anti-corruption but she can go higher than -5 if needed.

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

It's cherrypicking nevertheless. DE have all sort of improvements in their tech tree as well and different mechanics.

Dark Elves have no bonuses to building cost reduction or faster build times in their tech tree.

[Scr(A)tch]

Balkoth a écrit :

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

And no, you can only raise your corruption (with a -5 initially if the other one is at 100) and wait for the -5, heroes and armies don't clean anything (Death Hags add corruption instead).

Nah man.

https://imgur.com/a/hiyzvcE

See how there's -3 in Sartosa from the presence of the army? She doesn't have explicit anti-corruption but she can go higher than -5 if needed.

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

It's cherrypicking nevertheless. DE have all sort of improvements in their tech tree as well and different mechanics.

Dark Elves have no bonuses to building cost reduction or faster build times in their tech tree.

Man, if a full stack makes -3, it's so anecdotical I haven't noticed it. You're not gonna camp there more than one turn anyway, aren't you? Morathi still is the worst among DEs to manage other corruptions.

DE have income boni, it ends up the same as cost reductions: it's more gold either way. They can sacrifice slaves from turn 1 to instant build. I don't see why they would need those same techs as the HE when everything else is different.

Edit: funny screenshot, -24000 income lmao.

[Balkoth]

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

Man, if a full stack makes -3, it's so anecdotical I haven't noticed it. You're not gonna camp there more than one turn anyway, aren't you? Morathi still is the worst among DEs to manage other corruptions.

I think it's -1 per hero but not 100% sure on that. It is something you can use in "emergencies." And while Morathi has the hardest time removing corruption, she also doesn't take damage from any chaos related attrition.

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

DE have income boni, it ends up the same as cost reductions: it's more gold either way. They can sacrifice slaves from turn 1 to instant build. I don't see why they would need those same techs as the HE when everything else is different.

The tuning matters. High Elves get as much or more gold with no worry about running out of slaves and better/more trade partners in addition to very powerful infrastructure bonuses. But ultimately this boils down to the numbers involved, not concepts.

Scr(A)tch a écrit :

Edit: funny screenshot, -24000 income lmao.

Was like -40k a few turns ago, think that was after confederating Malekith and trying to deal with all the 0 loyalty armies.