So when are chaos dwarfes getting nerved?

[Jokulator]

I`d like to playtest em, but right now it feels like cheating and using easy mode at the same time.

I know that new dlc factions are always a bit op to sell the product, but hell, this time did go the extra mile to make the new faction ulta op.

Getting a bit ridicoulus...

[Who trains thy hands for war?]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

They are dwarfs without magic resistance. And Dwarfs are slow.
A unit of Blunderbusses is powerful, but can be punished in a lot of ways.

By the AI? LoL.

Had a unit of Ratling Gunners unload on them in a caravan battle, even after six or so volleys half of the Blunderbusses were still standing. And those Ratling Gunners had the high ground, so their damage was buffed. I allowed that to happen because my Blunderbusses were creaming all the Clanrats that were rushing in and the game let me get away with it.

No, for what pittance they cost they are way too strong offensively and defensively. They are basically Warpfirethrowers only three times as powerful and easily five times as sturdy with projectiles that fly faster and pierce models on top of that. They either need to get nerfed or have their price bumped up considerably.

Losing half of the Blunderbusses to a unit sounds bad. A difficult to replenish convoy army no less

[Hieronymous]

My finest Von Carstein armies were absolutely demolished by the top tier Spici Dawi armies. Pretty impressive seeing those high stat, fire damage and AP units just melt my whole army.

They never did replace their losses quite like I could, of course, and eventually, my Flammable Host won.

I thought the interplay between faction mechanics both tactically and strategically was pretty fun and interesting. After the initial shock of their high cost, elite troops wore off, I saw they were well balanced in the campaign.

[Mörkö]

They've been OP since day 1 and are no fun therefore. Will surely get nerfed after the initial sales slow down.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Who trains thy hands for war?:

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

By the AI? LoL.

Had a unit of Ratling Gunners unload on them in a caravan battle, even after six or so volleys half of the Blunderbusses were still standing. And those Ratling Gunners had the high ground, so their damage was buffed. I allowed that to happen because my Blunderbusses were creaming all the Clanrats that were rushing in and the game let me get away with it.

No, for what pittance they cost they are way too strong offensively and defensively. They are basically Warpfirethrowers only three times as powerful and easily five times as sturdy with projectiles that fly faster and pierce models on top of that. They either need to get nerfed or have their price bumped up considerably.

Losing half of the Blunderbusses to a unit sounds bad. A difficult to replenish convoy army no less

Tanking half a dozen high-ground ratling gun volleys is bad. No freakin' T2 unit should be able to do that.

And yet the Blunderbusses were never even wavering and killed off most of the attacking army in that battle.

They need to be nerfed in some way, period.

[Cenwalh]

A lot of these complaints are muddled by lacking context. People will complain about how they lose to Chorfs but fail to fill in the details that are very important.

Example A:

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Tanking half a dozen high-ground ratling gun volleys is bad. No freakin' T2 unit should be able to do that.

And yet the Blunderbusses were never even wavering and killed off most of the attacking army in that battle.

Ratling Guns have: a) speed advantage, they are faster; b) range advantage; and c) DPS advantage. bonus, they can inflict "suppressed" debuff, which slows the target. Therefore, Ratling Guns should be able to kite Blunderbusses all day without taking 1 point of damage. I have personally done this in my campaign and have not lost any single entity in that Ratling Gun unit. (versus chorfs). Skaven in general hard-counter the Chorfs so much, it's not even funny.
You need to learn the advantage your units have to use them properly, you just can't expect to right click and sit there hoping to win, that's just not how this game works, and then come to the forum to complain "omg Chorfs OP!!!11"

Example B:

Originally posted by Hartman:

Just lost 3 full 20 stack armies of orcs vs 1 chaos dwarf garrison + 1 army 5 turns into the game.

Didn't know this company was into pay to win, coming from old school warcraft 3 and and command and conquer I'm not used to this.

What were those 3 Greenskin stacks made of? There's plenty of context here that's missing. What units did you have in your army, because, again, you can't expect to win any fight just because you have a numerical advantage. unit types matter a lot, as do tactics and positioning.
Was it a siege battle? Towers can rack up a lot of kills in those...
And you also mention there was a Chorf army defending, besides the garrison. What was in that army?
Again, it doesn't matter if you outnumber the enemy 3-to-1 in a fight, if you have a crapstack made of Tier 1 Goblins, you're probably gonna lose...

[Cenwalh]

Originally posted by Hartman:

No balanced game has a faction able to field T3 units in the early game immediately, with no ability for all other factions to do the game.

Their is no way for me as an ORC to have T3 at turn 7... plain and simple.

I understand this is primarily a single-player game based off expensive action figures (with a large fanboy community) but balance should still be a priority, if WC3 balance was this bad the game would have had dropped support after 1 year instead its still alive after two decades, balance keeps games alive.

You can argue I shouldn't have attacked, so let's say I was playing a multiplayer campaign and the dwarf attacked me , I should roll over and die due to bad game design? TF is this.

Not sure how new you are to the series, but there's a few things that might seem they are bad design or counter-intuitive, or unbalanced. And you can argue that, but imo that's a different topic altogether.

SOME (not all) AI factions in this game have access to higher-tier units from the start, either because of lore reasons or because the AI has to be offset by some advantage to make up for its stupidity. They can't recruit more of them, they just start with a specific composition.

I am going to take a guess that you tried to attack Zharr Naggrund ? That settlement is basically the capital of the entire Chaos Dwarf race, and its controlling faction has a strong army from the start... because it's supposed to be a very fortified place. It would be lame if you could take it from turn 1 and have to fight only hobgoblins, there has to be some sort of indication that that's a stronghold that basically has only ever been controlled by Chaos Dwarfs and serves as their seat of power.

As for the comparison with WC3, not sure if that holds up. WC3 was thought from the start to also be a competitive multiplayer RTS, which this game is definitely not.

Think of it this way, you have certain challenges in the game that are posed either by specific combinations of units/factions/races going against you, or other such factors, but they are not even matches all the time.

As a player, you always have a way to find some advantage to exploit that the AI cannot fathom, which is why most people (myself included) consider the AI in this game to be very weak. It is not always clear what that advantage is, and there is no cookie-cutter answer. The beauty of this game is realizing what your specific situation is (tactically and strategically) and coming up with solutions that maximize your gains.

As for your example that "if this had been a multiplayer game" -- well, if it had been a multiplayer game, then your opponent wouldn't have had access to Tier 3 units from the start, that's just the AI.

[mattmcgill323]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

They are dwarfs without magic resistance. And Dwarfs are slow.
A unit of Blunderbusses is powerful, but can be punished in a lot of ways.

Aside from bug fixes, the only real nerfs I would like to see is:
- Astrogath needs a speed nerf(45 speed would still be very good) so that you have a chance to punish him if he overextends.
- Magma Cannons need a range nerf(down to around 400) or an accuracy nerf(Calibration Distance around 250).

Agree with this. Blunderbuss have a great shot and are tanky but slow as all hell, so offensively takes a lot of micro to put them into a damage dealing position.

Chorfs are definitely not OP. Ikit, Grom, Taurox, and Alarielle are good examples of OP.

[pistalpug]

I really don't understand what people are talking about. Chorfs are slow as hell, use that to your advantage.. Only time I have any issues with them is if I use autoreslove. Everyone knows that auto resolves has some issues.

They can't run away that good and can easily be out flanked. Send in some scrubs in to melee them , then another unit in their flank. Almost instant delete

You do know you don't have to blob up your army and go directly into their line of fire right?

[Jokulator]

Originally posted by Zeek:

Originally posted by Enelith:

Considering how long it took WoC to be nerfed, you still got time (and they're still not "that" nerfed imo...)

WoC were nerfed? News to me. IMO they are still the most OP faction. Chaos Dwarves have nothing on them.

just started a campaign with oxyotl an oooh hell, he is still insanely op. wocs look like cattle if you fight em ^^

[Jokulator]

Originally posted by tez3me:

when they first came out i wiped zhatans faction out with grimgor while fighting archaon and helman ghorst,what exactly is op about them?not sarcasm just curious

insane artillery + great single entity tanks + massive magic.
to op to play em and have fun.
similar issue with oxy, as i just had to realize picking him...

[Jokulator]

funny btw, how i complain they are to op to play em and people discuss how you can counterplay them if ai controlled.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Jokulator:

funny btw, how i complain they are to op to play em and people discuss how you can counterplay them if ai controlled.

They have some favourable matchups, and some bad matchups.

As a player vs AI, they are strong. Just like every other faction.

When playing against them(you vs AI), they have a lot of weaknesses you can exploit, just like every other faction.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Cenwalh:

Ratling Guns have: a) speed advantage, they are faster; b) range advantage; and c) DPS advantage. bonus, they can inflict "suppressed" debuff, which slows the target. Therefore, Ratling Guns should be able to kite Blunderbusses all day without taking 1 point of damage. I have personally done this in my campaign and have not lost any single entity in that Ratling Gun unit. (versus chorfs). Skaven in general hard-counter the Chorfs so much, it's not even funny.
You need to learn the advantage your units have to use them properly, you just can't expect to right click and sit there hoping to win, that's just not how this game works, and then come to the forum to complain "omg Chorfs OP!!!11"

And if you had paid any attention, spud, you'd have noticed I was talking about my OWN Blunderbusses breaking the Skaven army practically on their lonesome DESPITE getting bombarded by Ratling gun volleys for an extended amount of time. I was NOT complaining about the Ratling Guns, I was complaining that the game let me get away with this BS.

Always laugh when people try to be all smug and arrogant only to have it blown up in their faces just because they don't bother to actually read what they're commenting on.

[Hieronymous]

Don't have time to read all this but yeah just kite the blinderbusses with the fast skaven weapon teams. Problem solved.