What's the point of Streltsi after the DLC?

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

The Akshina Ambushers are just better streltsi. They're not higher tier (in fact, in Mother Ostankya's campaign, they're lower tier, recruitable from a tier 2 building rather than 3). They don't cost more. They're faster. They have arcing shots. They have longer range. They have better missile strength. They have better melee stats. They have stalk and vanguard deployment. The only thing the streltsi have over the Akshina Ambushers is better armor and a slightly better charge bonus.

Even if you were going to argue that somehow streltsi should be used as a front line (instead of armored kossars and Tsar Guard, who are vastly superior units for that purpose), the Akshina Ambushers have better melee defense, which is more important than armor for holding the line, and stalk, which is superior to armor for avoiding missile damage and winning a ranged fight.

There needs to be some kind of change, either a nerf to the Akshina Ambushers, or a buff to the streltsi, before the DLC launches, or I'm afraid the streltsi are going to be put straight in the trash for anyone who has the DLC.

[Aleera]

Originally posted by Fryskar:

Sisters got magic+fire arrows, 30 more range, 2s less reload time and a far smaller calibration radius (3 vs 5.1)
I'd have made them like aliths shadows, less models than normal ranged units.

Sisters are also 1100 gold, non stalk and a prime target for spells due to their formation. This negates their range bonus quite nicely.

Akshina even have +10 models. A volley of Akshina can do up to 1710-2520. (2115 average)
Sisters will do 1520-1760 per volley. (1640 average)

Sister their magic damage only really shines vs Ethereal unit's. The generic 20% physical resist on Daemons etc will lower the volley to 1368-2016 (1695 average)

Fire damage isn't really that important except stopping healing effects. There's quite alot of unit's that resist fire damage.

Akshina Ambushers are the number 2 missile infantry in the game. Only waywatchers are better. But if we take gold cost into account (MP) Akshina are just absurdly stronger then waywatchers on a per cost basis.

There hasn't been a unit so overly statted for it's gold cost since scourge runner chariots.

[Falaris]

I've been looking at high-AP crossbows, and the two other examples of that are darkshards and celestial dragon crossbows(CDC). Both are explained as having AP due to their 'iron tipped' or 'armor piercing' crossbow bolts. That, and they kill people real gud.

Some say darkshards use mystic bolts of killyness. To that I say: https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Darkshard

They both also have repeating crossbows, but that certainly do not make their shots more armor penetrating; rather the opposite, really, but it seems more reasonable that, with different crossbow types it's more contextually acceptable that they behave differently, even if the logic is off.

Basically, the AP value of the Akshinas isn't a problem in and of itself. Crossbows CAN have ap values like that, obviously. The question isn't, then, why does the Akshinas have those stats, but rather - why doesn't regular crossbowmen?

That's the real problem with the Akshinas, for me at least. You can make up explanations for it - it's the combination of elite agents with imported dwarven scoped crossbows and expensive AP bolts that together make the difference, and any one of those would just be expensive with no real benefit. Something like that. But it kinda doesn't settle the matter completely. But then, this question existed before, as well; it's not a problem with the akshinas themselves. They just made it a little more apparent.

[Heru Ra Ha]

There is none, they have been powercrept.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by sirkudjon:

Still better at defending chokepoints. Plus they have guns so armor piercing?
You can put them in gaps of your formation and they will keep shooting and in need can whitstand in melee? Also they can be recruited at Pragg so no need for that Tier 3 building?

Streltsi should never be used as a front line. They're better in a melee fight than most gun lines, but they're still garbage as a front line when compared to armored kossars and Tsar Guard. Kislev has excellent front line units, there's no reason to use streltsi as your front line.

At range, there's nothing the streltsi can do that the Akshina Ambushers can't, except maybe hit fast, small flying targets, which is incredibly niche and becomes irrelevant the moment those units land.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by Ash:

Originally posted by Naram-Sin:

"Strelsi are hybrids while Akshina are more pure ranged" WOULD be a good way of balancing them, but unfortunately the Akshina Ambushers have better melee combat stats than the streltsi.

Go ahead and put 1 Chaos Warriors of Khorne VS Streltsi on melee attack, and then do 1 with Akshina. Streltsi get them on average down to 5k before dying, Akshina can barely get to the 6k mark. So uhh. Are you sure about that?

Are you actually judging these units by their ability to do melee damage to Chaos warriors?

Kislev has some excellent front line units. Neither the Steltsi nor the Akshina Ambushers are among them. The only real standard by which these units can be judged in melee is how long they can tie up the attacking unit before routing.

[SomeGuy1]

I want to note that the accuracy difference is real. Like, I had my two starting units of ambushers take aim at a War Hydra in one of the early Ostankya battles (I don't remember if it was a land battle or one of the early quest battles for a campaign ability) and... the arrows were going all over the place, man. Like, missing by the size of an entire infantry unit. Chevrons help with that a lot, but Streltsi would have been putting nearly every bullet into the thing even at zero xp.
But damn, the ambushers are WAY overtuned in autoresolve for a tier 2 unit. Like, taking zero casualties in AR against higher tier armies. There's a reason the AI is just massing the things.

[Uugly]

They literally replace Streltsi and Ice Guard

[Aleera]

Originally posted by Falaris:

I've been looking at high-AP crossbows, and the two other examples of that are darkshards and celestial dragon crossbows(CDC). Both are explained as having AP due to their 'iron tipped' or 'armor piercing' crossbow bolts. That, and they kill people real gud.

Totally forgot about the Celestial dragon guard. That's what I get for never playing Cathay.

[capybaras are cool]

Originally posted by Falaris:

I've been looking at high-AP crossbows, and the two other examples of that are darkshards and celestial dragon crossbows(CDC). Both are explained as having AP due to their 'iron tipped' or 'armor piercing' crossbow bolts. That, and they kill people real gud.

Some say darkshards use mystic bolts of killyness. To that I say: https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Darkshard

They both also have repeating crossbows, but that certainly do not make their shots more armor penetrating; rather the opposite, really, but it seems more reasonable that, with different crossbow types it's more contextually acceptable that they behave differently, even if the logic is off.

Basically, the AP value of the Akshinas isn't a problem in and of itself. Crossbows CAN have ap values like that, obviously. The question isn't, then, why does the Akshinas have those stats, but rather - why doesn't regular crossbowmen?

That's the real problem with the Akshinas, for me at least. You can make up explanations for it - it's the combination of elite agents with imported dwarven scoped crossbows and expensive AP bolts that together make the difference, and any one of those would just be expensive with no real benefit. Something like that. But it kinda doesn't settle the matter completely. But then, this question existed before, as well; it's not a problem with the akshinas themselves. They just made it a little more apparent.

lol it is so stupid honestly. theyre guys wearing like caveman hunter type clothes and they have the second best crossbows in the world.

[Phun]

Superior melee stats, speed, missile damage (both base & AP), and of course vanguard deployment and stalk. Akshina Ambushers would be balanced if that had like 60 models, but instead we get the typical DLC power creep.

[Triple G]

There are also shades, which fire faster and have more AP, while having less range - and less non AP damage, while they only do more damage because they fire two projectiles at a time. And of course they´re the better melee fighters, but 10 models less. So with 24 AP damage on 80 models it´s 1.920 damage in 10 seconds, and 18 AP damage on 90 models is 1.620 damage in 12 seconds.

Strelsi do less damage, and are overall worse, but i wouldn´t use either of the units in melee as both are mediocre at best. Shades perhaps, but usually they destroy anything before they could fight melee.

Strelsi have more armor, so they could be useful vs. enemies with many ranged, but not armor piercing units. While Strelsi were good enough i guess. I didn´t feel Kislev was missing out in the ranged department, with the sleds, and ice guards, and cannons, and spells which slow down if needed, and half their unit roster being somehow hybrid units, with short range, but actual decent melee stats. And yes - given that i read that Kislev basically gets worse equipment it feels off they have a crossbow with a scope, when the dwarfs don´t have it...

[Uugly]

Just doesn't make much sense with some of the least technology factions have more advance technology than Dwarf and Empire.

[The Grand Mugwump]

Streltsi have 80 armor to Akshasha's 30 armor and slightly better charge value (lol). That's about it. The armor is kind of worth it, but only kind of.

I still think it looks horrible for the Great Orthodoxy to be running around with bogeymen and hag servants when they're usually the ones declaring them as heathens.

[yosi7371]

Bald