Total War: WARHAMMER III

Total War: WARHAMMER III

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Ohio9 May 7, 2023 @ 7:56pm
Is there any reason to want to increase a unit's leadership skill or get the unbroken trait?
Leadership only determines when a unit will rout, correct?

If so, I don't see any reason to ever want to increase it. At the default setting, most units only rout when they are severely damaged or near death. That's when I want them to rout. I don't want them to fight to the death and lose the entire unit. That's not a good thing. I'd rather they live to fight another day. It's actually kind of nice to be able to rely on the AI to pull out of combat when they need to.

Having a unit with the unbreakable trait is really frustrating. It means you have to constantly babysit it and make sure it doesn't suicide itself while you are distracted by something else on the battlefield.

So is there any particular reason why high leadership or unbreakable is a desirable thing?
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Showing 1-15 of 31 comments
Kel'Thuzad May 7, 2023 @ 8:11pm 
Well for starters, in the case of demons and undead, they disintegrate instead of routing. So you certainly don't want that to happen.

For everything else, there's no guarantee that routing means running away to safety. If the enemy pursues the unit, they will all die anyway. In which case, it's better if they had stood their ground and fought to the last model, because at least they're dealing damage and contributing to the battle.

Also, unless your units have "expendable", their routing will lower the moral of other friendly units, which can set off a chain reaction of multiple units breaking.
Last edited by Kel'Thuzad; May 7, 2023 @ 9:13pm
Defmonkey May 7, 2023 @ 8:13pm 
Well i think it depends on the unit really.

They can only rout 3 tires before they become broken and leave the field entirely. With units with lower leadership they can break too easily, when you would otherwise prefer to hold just that little bit longer.

Also, as Kel'Thuzad has mentioned as another good point.

and... there is also susceptibility of chain routing as well, this can devastate your army in battle.
Last edited by Defmonkey; May 7, 2023 @ 8:17pm
Ohio9 May 7, 2023 @ 8:19pm 
Originally posted by Defmonkey:
They can only rout 3 tires before they become broken and leave the field entirely.

That's a good point, but at the same time, if a unit has actually lived long enough to rout 3 times, chances are it's got less than 10% of its health left and I'd probably prefer it left the field rather than sticking around to get wiped by a random arrow volley or artillery shell.
Defmonkey May 7, 2023 @ 8:23pm 
Originally posted by Ohio9:
Originally posted by Defmonkey:
They can only rout 3 tires before they become broken and leave the field entirely.

That's a good point, but at the same time, if a unit has actually lived long enough to rout 3 times, chances are it's got less than 10% of its health left and I'd probably prefer it left the field rather than sticking around to get wiped by a random arrow volley or artillery shell.

Again that would depend on the unit of course. Dwarf ironbreakers for sure, but many skaven, greenskin and some of the human units, maybe not. Fear and terror can also play a role also.
A.Pot May 7, 2023 @ 8:31pm 
It can make a huge difference for units with low leadership like most Skaven, Greenskins, Bretonnian infantry, Cathay Peasant Longspears, Chaos Dwarf Laborers, Gnoblars, etc. Being able to keep chaff in the fight longer is not something to be underestimated.
Dou B Jin May 7, 2023 @ 8:32pm 
IIRC if your units rout 3 times they will run away no matter how much HP they have.

things like psycological fear can trigger your units to route at way higher morale than normal which can lead to mass route while the enemy chase them down and wipe them out.

This is why Kislev's racial is so damn good for holding the line imo because even the most basic units will fight to the death until the 30 second is over.

You also got units like the immortalz with grimgore that will literally not die as long as they have more than 50% morale

Higher morale units also tend to stick around even after taking a large amount of damage vs low morale units which might run when they get charged which will often result in them taking more damage as they get mowed down.

idk if they fixed it but it used to be such a huge meme how you can't kill grimgore.

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/xbn4lh/grimgor_unbreakable_immortalz_banner_invincible/
Last edited by Dou B Jin; May 7, 2023 @ 8:37pm
Ohio9 May 7, 2023 @ 8:35pm 
Originally posted by A.Pot:
It can make a huge difference for units with low leadership like most Skaven, Greenskins, Bretonnian infantry, Cathay Peasant Longspears, Chaos Dwarf Laborers, Gnoblars, etc. Being able to keep chaff in the fight longer is not something to be underestimated.

Okay that makes sense. I've been playing mostly Empire and it seems they only rout when I want them to. I can't recall the last time someone routed and my first reaction was "don't do that."
Kel'Thuzad May 7, 2023 @ 8:39pm 
Love when I reply first, answer the question thoroughly, and get ignored. Lel.
Defmonkey May 7, 2023 @ 8:39pm 
Originally posted by Ohio9:
Originally posted by A.Pot:
It can make a huge difference for units with low leadership like most Skaven, Greenskins, Bretonnian infantry, Cathay Peasant Longspears, Chaos Dwarf Laborers, Gnoblars, etc. Being able to keep chaff in the fight longer is not something to be underestimated.

Okay that makes sense. I've been playing mostly Empire and it seems they only rout when I want them to. I can't recall the last time someone routed and my first reaction was "don't do that."

Sure, Skaven actually get a speed buff when then rout. That's why they seem so annoying skittering about and coming back again. Lol.
Last edited by Defmonkey; May 7, 2023 @ 8:40pm
Shellbie May 7, 2023 @ 9:18pm 
Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:
Love when I reply first, answer the question thoroughly, and get ignored. Lel.
I give you an award to cheer you up but remember that life was always a war
cb4n28 May 7, 2023 @ 9:23pm 
Well besides the obvious advantage of having a unit that will hold the enemy in place no matter what; allowing your other units to mop up the enemy or get into flanking position; routing units decrease the morale of other units, which can cause ripple effects across your whole army. Seeing another unit rout can be the difference between a unit holding the line or routing. The problems with that should be pretty clear.

The exception is units with the expendable trait, your other units don't care what happens to them
SpeaksTooFast May 7, 2023 @ 9:39pm 
As has already been stated for undead and demon units the benefit should be obvious and makes it a really good stat. After that it's biggest impact may just more stats to feed into the auto-resolve calculation.

Sometimes you want your heroes to run away before they die... this can be one of the more frustrating aspects of playing Kesliv. That being said if you are paying attention and not YOLOing around the campaign map it should not normally be an issue.
RadCon One May 7, 2023 @ 9:40pm 
Unbreakable can be amazing... but raising leadership in general tends to suck as I've found so many of my units fight until they are almost down and out anyway, and since it seems like the leadership debuffs get exponentially worse as the unit gets lower hp the extra 10 or so leadership makes jack-all of a difference in the end.

The +15 leadership for 3 skill points thing some heroes have in particular is absolutely garbage and I only take it in games where I am using mods that add extra skill points and I have nothing left to take.
Last edited by RadCon One; May 7, 2023 @ 9:41pm
Defmonkey May 7, 2023 @ 9:44pm 
Yeah other thing on routing is that you loose control of the unit. Just because it runs away does not mean that is good.

Similar as rampage is usually deemed as an undesirable trait, the player looses control of the unit and sometimes for the worst.

As far as routing is concerned it is better your units hold and you relieve them if possible and draw them back to safety to recover to redeploy if needed. Otherwise situations already described above posts can occur.
TheSilverRaven May 7, 2023 @ 9:45pm 
Have you ever played a Skaven campaign, OP? Usually people will use summons and heroes as a front line for their guns specifically because Skaven leadership is so damn bad. Now imagine you don't have that as an option. Maybe it's early in the game or some sort of challenge campaign.

How about Trolls. Have you ever tried fielding an all-Troll army? Trolls are fantastic. Reasonably good speed and melee stats and they've got regen... Except their base leadership is just awful. Buff them with Throgg or make them unbreakable via Grom's Cauldron though and they're absolutely amazing units.

You want your units to hold. Unless you're playing dwarves or something on the higher end of the leadership range, they're almost certainly going to rout before the unit being wiped out entirely. The longer they hold, the longer you can do damage - either with those units if they're damage dealing melee or with your other units if they're line holders. Now, I'd definitely agree leadership is a lower priority than melee attack or melee defense, but if you've got the option to increase it without passing up on something more useful, you definitely want to.
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Date Posted: May 7, 2023 @ 7:56pm
Posts: 31