(Mod) Balkoth's Dark Elf Slave Overhaul Exhibition

[Balkoth]

Well, this is a post I was hoping I wouldn't ever write.

Earlier this year I released a mod which overhauled how the Dark Elf slave system worked. I had hoped it would become obsolete in patch 3.0 due to official CA changes. Sadly, nothing happened in 3.0. Even more disappointingly, we still have no idea when to expect adjustments -- it could be next month, it could be in five months. As a result, I've decided to advertise this mod a bit more to tide people over until we get a proper CA fix since I think there's general agreement that the current state is...less than ideal.

The mod can be found here:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2906963276

The video below gives a brief introduction, spends some time demonstrating how the total income is generally within a few percent, and then gives an overview of the mod features.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXjsESLUhL8

I also did a Morathi Normal/Normal playthrough until turn 30 both without the mod and with the mod to show how it works (and how you end up in basically the same spot either way). The links to those videos can be found in the description of the above video.

And finally here's an FAQ!

Q. What are the two pillars of your mod?

A. Great phrasing of your question! The two pillars are percentage based slave loss (instead of a flat amount) and diktats being engaging and impactful.

In WH2 Dark Elves lost a percentage of their slaves each turn, meaning it was difficult to maintain the highest slave counts (at least until Masters were introduced) but easy to avoid everything collapsing. WH3 changed this to a linearly increasing slave cost per turn. Unfortunately, this means that it gets increasingly difficult to keep up with the slave loss as the game progresses, especially if you're newer to Dark Elves or suffer some setbacks/delays, and this can result in an economic collapse you can't dig yourself out of. This mod restores the paradigm of percentage based loss which means maintaining the basic bonuses is easy as long as you're doing at least some fighting/raiding/building of slave infrastucture but achieving/maintaining the best bonuses requires significant effort.

Diktats were introduced in WH3 for Dark Elves. Unfortunately, the shared global cooldown and small bonuses made these pretty unimpactful and generally ignorable. The best was +20 public order for 5 turns in exchange for 400 slaves...but it could only be active in one province in your empire (and you had to wait for the previous use to expire before you could use it in a new province to boot). So reasonably useful early on but the more your empire expanded the less useful it became. This mod seeks to make them useful the whole game. First, they generally give larger bonuses at the cost of more slaves. Second, there's no limit on how often they can be activated as long as you can pay the price. If you get some nasty territory that's in shambles, you can throw the public order diktat (+30 for 5 turns) AND the growth/cheaper building cost (+100/-20%) diktat at it to get things in order quickly...but it'll cost you 1400 slaves to do so. And you can do the same in two other provinces halfway across the world on the very same turn...if you have another 2800 slaves to spare.

Q. Sounds like you just struggled with Dark Elves and wanted a mod to make them easy mode.

A. That feels like more of a statement than a question. But no, I beat an unmodded Legendary Malekith campaign with Domination Victory (272 settlements conquered) on turn 118 while becoming part of the Ordertide for the hell of it. You can see some more details and a save file here (https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/10eue81/i_beat_dark_elf_legendary_campaigns_in_both_22/). However, the economy always being 4-5 turns from collapse was a bit stressful and I've heard a lot of feedback from people who struggled with the current incarnation of Dark Elves...and from other people who refuse to even try the Dark Elves because of the stuff they've heard about the current situation. This mod is aimed more at them. If you're a veteran Dark Elf player with an extremely aggressive playstyle who cruises to victory unmodded, you won't see a significant power gain from this mod -- though it should feel smoother and more engaging.

Q. Okay, maybe I believe you. What else changes in the mod?

Well, since slave loss is mostly percentage based Industry buildings and Ports no longer consume slaves (Ports actually generate a small amount). They also don't give bonus income from having slaves BUT the slave thresholds give a much bigger income bonus to compensate as your slave population increases. The slave thresholds were modified (300/1,200/5,000/20,000 instead of 800/2,000/5,000/10,000). Settlements consume a small number of slaves per turn which increases if your level of Control is bad (same principle as unmodded, low control equals higher loss of slaves). Anything that gave a bonus to slave income now gives a bonus to building income (skills/techs/faction bonuses/etc). Roads are more generally useful, especially in smaller provinces. Farms always give full value regardless of slaves. Level 2 Slave Pens are a bit better. Rites are back to their original 400 slave cost due to losing more slaves off the bat with percentage decline. Things should generally be pretty intuitive except for the refreshing Diktat bug.
A few weaker economy techs were also buffed (going from like 1% overall increase to 2% overall increase) which technically means Dark Elves wind up like 4-5% ahead in terms of income with the mod late-game.

Q. Why did you err on the side of making Dark Elves a few percent too strong with those changes?

I didn't want to punish people who generally don't prioritize (or even skip) some of those techs and I also didn't want people refusing to use this mod because they assumed it was a nerf to Dark Elves. I can always adjust tuning based on feedback. The biggest single difference is probably Malekith's Motivation Through Fear skill (5% income from slaves, now 10% building income) because it was so bad before.

Q. Just how bad was Malekith's skill?

It was way weaker than the preceding Tyrant skill (5% building income, 1 global control) for some reason. 5% building income is already much better than 5% slave income (about twice as good), and it also gave 1 global control on top of that. Like it was a 1-2% at most increase in economic output. Now it's more like a 4-5% increase.

Q. But you're open to adjusting these values?

A. Of course! There's a lot of tuning knobs available, but so far testing has repeatedly shown modded and unmodded are generally within a few percent of each other. It would be easy to dial back the power a few percent if that becomes the consensus. Just keep in mind this mod is also NOT supposed to be a nerf either (although you could argue Dark Elves deserve a small one).

Q. You said something about a refreshing Diktat bug earlier?

A. Yeah. I don't think I can fix it on my end. If you activate a Diktat and let it expire before reactivating it, you'll never see the bug. If you stack the Diktat multiple times initially you won't see the bug. You'll only see the bug (maybe) if you try to extend a Diktat with like 3 turns remaining (out of 5) -- and not always then, still not sure exactly what causes it. Something about map loading or province control shifting maybe? But again, you're guaranteed to never see it if you always let Diktats expire first or stack the duration up initially.

Q. Do you ever play anything other than Dark Elves?

A. Sure, won Long Victory with a Legendary Ice Court (Kislev) campaign on turn 83 a few days ago, currently in the Vermintide end-game scenario in that campaign. Also play a lot of High Elves and Empire and a decent chunk of Skaven, Grand Cathay, Lizardmen, and Bretonnia.

Q. In your video, why can't you say 410,175 correctly and how did you confuse 300 and 3000?

A. Math is hard.

[Amereth]

My Dark elves are already too strong, don't need that.

I prefer the new system. Not having to worry about max slave and just using and abusing them like it should be.

in wh2 the whole stacking max slave was just boring and felt uninteractive. Set a province to receive the slaves and then ignore the whole thing until the province is full, rinse and repeat.



But it is always good to have options and if your mod keep the Dark Elves around the same strength then im sure some people will love it.

[Balkoth]

Originally posted by Amereth:

I prefer the new system. Not having to worry about max slave and just using and abusing them like it should be.

This still is the new system. It's just that instead of Industry and Port buildings consuming slaves, you lose a percentage instead. And, as you put it, you want to "use and abuse them" with the Diktats constantly (as long as you can keep a reasonable count overall).

Originally posted by Amereth:

in wh2 the whole stacking max slave was just boring and felt uninteractive. Set a province to receive the slaves and then ignore the whole thing until the province is full, rinse and repeat.

Correct. This isn't that :)

[Amereth]

Originally posted by Balkoth:

Originally posted by Amereth:

I prefer the new system. Not having to worry about max slave and just using and abusing them like it should be.

This still is the new system. It's just that instead of Industry and Port buildings consuming slaves, you lose a percentage instead. And, as you put it, you want to "use and abuse them" with the Diktats constantly (as long as you can keep a reasonable count overall).

Originally posted by Amereth:

in wh2 the whole stacking max slave was just boring and felt uninteractive. Set a province to receive the slaves and then ignore the whole thing until the province is full, rinse and repeat.

Correct. This isn't that :)

ok. Then if you say they aren't stronger. I might try your mod next time i play them. thx for sharing.

[Balkoth]

Originally posted by Amereth:

ok. Then if you say they aren't stronger. I might try your mod next time i play them. thx for sharing.

The goal is for them to basically be the same power, just less punishing for mistakes (which is particularly aimed at newer players who will struggle a lot more than veteran players) and less frustrating overall (plus more engaging with active use of Diktats).

If your experience is otherwise I would be most interested in your feedback.

Edit: and if your experience matches the expectation that would obviously also be good feedback.

[Amereth]

Originally posted by Balkoth:

Originally posted by Amereth:

ok. Then if you say they aren't stronger. I might try your mod next time i play them. thx for sharing.

The goal is for them to basically be the same power, just less punishing for mistakes (which is particularly aimed at newer players who will struggle a lot more than veteran players) and less frustrating overall (plus more engaging with active use of Diktats).

If your experience is otherwise I would be most interested in your feedback.

Edit: and if your experience matches the expectation that would obviously also be good feedback.

hehe. I will tell you how it went once i start that campaign.

[Ire]

Personally, I just want the old system back, even if its nerfed. The new system just doesnt do much for me - I end up just not building economic buildings in most places because the drain isnt worth it. And if its not a recruitment prov, then theres not really anything else to build so I just leave building slots empty.

They took away the system "because it was too complex and spreadsheety" then gave it to chorfs, who already are massively overloaded with features. I hope they undo this and give the DE's the old mechanic back (even if nerfed) as it was simply more fun and managable.

[Balkoth]

Originally posted by Ire:

The new system just doesnt do much for me - I end up just not building economic buildings in most places because the drain isnt worth it.

Good news!

Although this mod can't replicate the old WH2 system, it does remove slave drain from economic buildings (including industry buildings and ports) which means it's always worth it to build those specifically.

[Amereth]

Originally posted by Ire:

Personally, I just want the old system back, even if its nerfed. The new system just doesnt do much for me - I end up just not building economic buildings in most places because the drain isnt worth it. And if its not a recruitment prov, then theres not really anything else to build so I just leave building slots empty.

They took away the system "because it was too complex and spreadsheety" then gave it to chorfs, who already are massively overloaded with features. I hope they undo this and give the DE's the old mechanic back (even if nerfed) as it was simply more fun and managable.

i don't want to derail the topic too much but Dark elves economic building is one of the best in the game. For only 101 slave at the end of your turn the building give you 300 gold at tier 1, 500 at 2 and 700 at 3.

You only need to have a big amount of slaves if you want to abuse the bonus % you get from different lord or research

That is only worth something mid to late game when you have a good amount of stacked bonus and at that point your slave cap should be high and you should have a lot of armies producing slaves.


Anyway, if you can switch your mindset around you will enjoy their mechanic much much more, i was like you at first the first time i played them in wh3, i didn't like that.

But i decided to view them as expandable and sacrifice them as much as possible which resulted in a more enjoyable and interactive playthough.


Now back on topic, hopefully you will find a mod, maybe this one, that will let you enjoy them again.

[Captain Baldy]

Thanks for this mod. Subscribed for a later campaign

[Count von Bunnyhopven]

Does this mod in anyway increase Dark elfs research. Because I cant find a way to increase it normally as it is and I dont think that was the way it was in WH2. It means that getting to the end of the tech tree will take forever because later tags will reqyuire increasing amount of research and most other factions would have it at 200-300% at turn 60. While my Rakart have it at 108% currently.

[Balkoth]

Originally posted by Amereth:

But i decided to view them as expandable and sacrifice them as much as possible which resulted in a more enjoyable and interactive playthough.

Yeah, the key is to assume you'll both lose and gain a lot.

The main point of this mod is to help people who struggle keeping up the slave income -- it means you'll never zero out on slaves and lose all your bonuses, you'll just get less bonuses if you're working on improving your aggressiveness.

[Dou B Jin]

Okay not what I was expecting when I saw the words Dark Elf and exhibition.

[Scr(A)tch]

Originally posted by Count von Bunnyhopven:

Does this mod in anyway increase Dark elfs research. Because I cant find a way to increase it normally as it is and I dont think that was the way it was in WH2. It means that getting to the end of the tech tree will take forever because later tags will reqyuire increasing amount of research and most other factions would have it at 200-300% at turn 60. While my Rakart have it at 108% currently.

Sorceresses buildings, and sorceresses themselves.

[Count von Bunnyhopven]

Originally posted by Scr(A)tch:

Originally posted by Count von Bunnyhopven:

Does this mod in anyway increase Dark elfs research. Because I cant find a way to increase it normally as it is and I dont think that was the way it was in WH2. It means that getting to the end of the tech tree will take forever because later tags will reqyuire increasing amount of research and most other factions would have it at 200-300% at turn 60. While my Rakart have it at 108% currently.

Sorceresses buildings, and sorceresses themselves.

How are sorceresses increasing research? Steal technology?

[Balkoth]

Originally posted by Count von Bunnyhopven:

How are sorceresses increasing research? Steal technology?

Yes, each level 3 Sorceress building gives +1 capacity and each Sorceress can give like 35% research if you keep stealing it.

Also a level 3 Sorceress building gives 4% research and a level 5 Sorceress building gives 8% research.

A Black Ark's level 5 Sorceress building gives 4% research.

A Black Ark level 10 skill gives 10% research.

So if you had 3 level 5 Black Arks at level 10+ you'd get 42% from that and if you had 7 level 3 Sorceress buildings you'd have another 28% from that for 70%, for example.