The Dark Elves make my campaign unwinnable.

[Ohio9]

So I'm playing the Empire in mortal empires, and by the time I reached the coast across from the Dark Elf Island, the DE's controlled the entire thing and have a seemingly endless supply of armies either there or close to it.

I just fought two major wars with them, in which I wiped about about 20 full armies over a span of about 20 turns. But it was all for nothing. I didn't gain a single inch of ground each time and just had to trade a capitol settlement back to them to make peace.

I'm just wondering if I'm ever going to be able to win this. They have limitless armies and can send them at me at any time, in any place along the coast. I can't leave a dozen armies of my own there permanently for the moment they declare war on me again. And as I expand, that means they can hit me at any spot on the coast.

So really it seems like I might have to write this campaign off. The Dark Elves just got so powerful that they are going to dominate the game permanently, because they can just spawn armies out of nothing and keep them full time near the coast for the sole purpose of wiping me out.

It doesn't seem to matter that they are at war with about a dozen other factions besides me. I'm always the target where all their armies go.

I've sunk about 70 hours into this campaign, and I'd really hate to write it off. But I just don't see any way this is ever going to get better. No matter how much I expand in the other directions, I have this faction in the west with about a million armies on standby ready to exterminate me at a moment's notice.

And to think people say late-game is easy. It wasn't like this in Warhammer 2. Sure the Dark elves dominate, as they always did. But they were never keeping so many armies in one place, with the ability to replace them immediately at any time.

[BigRockWall]

Supply line penalties have been drastically reduced since WH2, and this affects both you and the AI. So yeah, it means the AI can field more armies than WH2, but it also means you can too. Try keeping a half stack in each of your coastal cities that you are referring to. You can combine half stacks as needed to fend off invaders, but often a single half stack plus t3 garrison building is enough to stay safe.

If they are at war with a dozen major factions and only ever send their armies at you, sounds to me like the other AI should have free reign over the undefended DE territory. If you can manage to get even a single doomstack over to where your have war coordinated targets for your allies, and help them push without having to defend and develop the conquered land, you can make great strides while you defend your homeland coasts. Eventually, the number of DE armies will dwindle as your alliance takes more and more of their land. The important part of this is that you refrain from trying to take and hold a bunch of new land yourself.

[Basarab Laiota]

stop peacing out with them

[Ohio9]

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

Supply line penalties have been drastically reduced since WH2, and this affects both you and the AI. So yeah, it means the AI can field more armies than WH2, but it also means you can too. Try keeping a half stack in each of your coastal cities that you are referring to. You can combine half stacks as needed to fend off invaders, but often a single half stack plus t3 garrison building is enough to stay safe.

I don't know what good that would do against a dozen armies invading in one place. Plus these are dark elves we're talking about, which is one of the game's best factions.

[Ohio9]

Originally posted by Basarab Laiota:

stop peacing out with them

Believe me I didn't want to. Both cases were the only way to avoid extermination. I told you I wiped out about 20 of their armies and they were still sending more. I couldn't keep that pace up forever.

[BigRockWall]

Half stack (full if you're rich) plus a T-3 garrison (resulting in unwalled settlement battle aka choke points) is capable of defeating 2 DE full stacks, at a minimum. If they really are showing up with a full dozen stacks at one city location in a single turn, you can do a few things. First, prioritize getting lightning strike, and second use those other stacks that i suggested you keep in each coastal city to support. The 2 are mutually exclusive, of course, but both can be used to cut down the number of armies you actually have to deal with in sieges.

The 2nd half of my post that you didn't quote is also important. The idea is if you are being overwhelmed, you need to find a way to cut down the amount of power (cities) they posses. But, as you said, you cannot afford to actually expand currently, so, figure out how to make a minimal investment (single doomstack, or 2 balanced stacks moving together) do work for you taking their cities away from them. You will find that if you actually use diplomacy and war coordination, you can make your allies do the city holding for you. You just have to take them and trade them, one at a time. The tide will end eventually this way.

[Bolovo]

Originally posted by Ohio9:

Originally posted by Basarab Laiota:

stop peacing out with them

Believe me I didn't want to. Both cases were the only way to avoid extermination. I told you I wiped out about 20 of their armies and they were still sending more. I couldn't keep that pace up forever.

what difficulty is it? I mean, this sounds like very hard or even legendary. i play on those difficulties too, and most of the medium/late game is a slog. You beat army after army and they are able to raise another full stack in no more than two turns. But that's what difficulty does mainly, tho. More recruitment slots, more growth, less upkeep. You can always reduce it on the menu, because it's simply not gonna stop until you face them directly. Make a doomstack if you're able and send it to raze everything in their path, or just turn your expansion towards dark elf territory really. There aren't a lot of options when it gets like this, the enemy is hoplessly outproducing you.

[DarkFenix]

Firstly, the AI does not "spawn armies out of nowhere", it is beholden to the same rules of recruitment as you, with some bonuses on the numbers front (more recruitment slots I believe). Moreover, the Dark Elves have no global recruitment so they're more limited in that respect.

Secondly, by that stage of the game the AI's economic benefits mean nothing, you should be able to churn out armies even better than they can.

It sounds to me like you play a "sit back and wait" game. 70 hours into a campaign and you're not the single dominant force on the map. You managed to fight 20 battles without advancing at all. Maybe attack them instead of sitting on your ass watching them build.

[Ohio9]

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

You will find that if you actually use diplomacy and war coordination, you can make your allies do the city holding for you. You just have to take them and trade them, one at a time. The tide will end eventually this way.

The problem is my allies are too far away from the Dark Elf island to be useful. The island is right next to me. They can have a dozen ships of full armies sailing on my shores in one turn.

My allies are basically on the opposite side of the map. They can't get to the island in time to be of any aid, and even if they could, I'm not sure how much it would help. Taking one or two settlements form their undefended rear isn't going to do much. Say it diverts 3 or 4 armies from me to go retake them. That wouldn't be enough.

[Bolovo]

Originally posted by Ohio9:

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

You will find that if you actually use diplomacy and war coordination, you can make your allies do the city holding for you. You just have to take them and trade them, one at a time. The tide will end eventually this way.

The problem is my allies are too far away from the Dark Elf island to be useful. The island is right next to me. They can have a dozen ships of full armies sailing on my shores in one turn.

My allies are basically on the opposite side of the map. They can't get to the island in time to be of any aid, and even if they could, I'm not sure how much it would help. Taking one or two settlements form their undefended rear isn't going to do much. Say it diverts 3 or 4 armies from me to go retake them. That wouldn't be enough.

how many settlements do you have and how many do the de have?

[Ohio9]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Firstly, the AI does not "spawn armies out of nowhere", it is beholden to the same rules of recruitment as you, with some bonuses on the numbers front (more recruitment slots I believe). Moreover, the Dark Elves have no global recruitment so they're more limited in that respect.

All I know is what I saw: I wiped out nearly 20 armies and they still kept coming. They could literally replace their armies faster than I could replace a single lost unit within my armies.

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Secondly, by that stage of the game the AI's economic benefits mean nothing, you should be able to churn out armies even better than they can.

But I actually have an empire to expand and defend, meaning I can't keep all my armies in one place, but they apparently can.

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

It sounds to me like you play a "sit back and wait" game. 70 hours into a campaign and you're not the single dominant force on the map. You managed to fight 20 battles without advancing at all. Maybe attack them instead of sitting on your ass watching them build.

What about the endless waves of armies coming at me do you not understand? I can't attack them when they are constantly sending armies at me, because that doesn't leave enough time for mine to recover from their last attack.

The best I could do was slip one army past their lines, take one undefended province, and then trade it back to them for peace. And even that took maximum effort.

Originally posted by Bolovo:

what difficulty is it? I mean, this sounds like very hard or even legendary.

It was on hard when I first encountered them. I wasn't having any problems up to that point, and I did fine with it in WH2. But then they hit me like a freight train. I bumped it down to normal, and then easy after that, but it didn't help.

[BigRockWall]

Originally posted by Ohio9:

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

You will find that if you actually use diplomacy and war coordination, you can make your allies do the city holding for you. You just have to take them and trade them, one at a time. The tide will end eventually this way.

The problem is my allies are too far away from the Dark Elf island to be useful. The island is right next to me. They can have a dozen ships of full armies sailing on my shores in one turn.

My allies are basically on the opposite side of the map. They can't get to the island in time to be of any aid, and even if they could, I'm not sure how much it would help. Taking one or two settlements form their undefended rear isn't going to do much. Say it diverts 3 or 4 armies from me to go retake them. That wouldn't be enough.

Sorry i think I was unclear. By "your allies can do the city holding for you", I was referencing having them be the ones that hold the DE land your single doomstak that I mentioned was taking from the DE overseas. Yes, it just might have them divert a couple armies, which will make maybe a modest difference at best. But that's not the main goal. The main goal is removing cities from their control permanently, using your allies to do the holding and developing so you don't have to. Just sitting still weathering the storm is likely to get you nowhere. But I can understand why you might feel taking the fight to them is impossible. So try it with a minimum investment and allied support like I've suggested. Eventually the number of armies being sent to your coasts will drop enough that your defensive armies can become offensive armies.

Edit - Aha i see now that you did this but traded the cities back to them for peace. Thats what I'm getting at with war coordination with allies. You want to be getting your allies to take any single one of thier cities in say Naggarond, so that when you take cities you can instead trade them to your allies, in stead of giving them back to the DE.

[Bolovo]

Originally posted by Ohio9:

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Firstly, the AI does not "spawn armies out of nowhere", it is beholden to the same rules of recruitment as you, with some bonuses on the numbers front (more recruitment slots I believe). Moreover, the Dark Elves have no global recruitment so they're more limited in that respect.

All I know is what I saw: I wiped out nearly 20 armies and they still kept coming. They could literally replace their armies faster than I could replace a single lost unit within my armies.

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Secondly, by that stage of the game the AI's economic benefits mean nothing, you should be able to churn out armies even better than they can.

But I actually have an empire to expand and defend, meaning I can't keep all my armies in one place, but they apparently can.

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

It sounds to me like you play a "sit back and wait" game. 70 hours into a campaign and you're not the single dominant force on the map. You managed to fight 20 battles without advancing at all. Maybe attack them instead of sitting on your ass watching them build.

What about the endless waves of armies coming at me do you not understand? I can't attack them when they are constantly sending armies at me, because that doesn't leave enough time for mine to recover from their last attack.

The best I could do was slip one army past their lines, take one undefended province, and then trade it back to them for peace. And even that took maximum effort.

Originally posted by Bolovo:

what difficulty is it? I mean, this sounds like very hard or even legendary.

It was on hard when I first encountered them. I wasn't having any problems up to that point, and I did fine with it in WH2. But then they hit me like a freight train. I bumped it down to normal, and then easy after that, but it didn't help.

Do tell us about the state of the campaign, tho. How many settlements do you currently have, which other enemies or threats are you fighting? how many settelements do the DE have?

I mean, reducing the difficutly is not an instant "victory", but it WILL help a lot. The AI bonuses on hard are quite high, so if you turn the difficutly down, they will not disband their armies, but it will make them produce fewer of them. And each city you raze will also hurt them much more, because they have no growth bonuses on lower difficutlies

Also, which army composition are you using? You should be late in the campaign as to be able to produce at least one doomstack...

[crowe6891]

Anything over normal difficulty the AI CHEATS!...

[Ohio9]

Originally posted by Bolovo:

Do tell us about the state of the campaign, tho. How many settlements do you currently have, which other enemies or threats are you fighting? how many settelements do the DE have?

I mean, reducing the difficutly is not an instant "victory", but it WILL help a lot. The AI bonuses on hard are quite high, so if you turn the difficutly down, they will not disband their armies, but it will make them produce fewer of them.

The Cult of Pleasure is the Dark Elf faction that controls the elf island. They have about 50 settlements. I'm not sure the total number that I have (is there a way to check other than individually counting them all?), but it's pretty comparable to that.

Well turning down the difficulty AI made zero difference since then.

It just seems like I run into a nightmare scenario whenever I encounter a strong faction with at least 30 settlements, and their territory is in hostile climate. They just dump truck loads of armies on me, while I have to keep my armies divided to maintain my empire. Meanwhile war progress goes at a snail's pace, since I have almost no time to recover from their attacks, and when I can counter attack, it takes forever to build a captured settlement up due to the climate penalties, so it's just a sitting duck to be attacked again, even with an army in it.

I had the same issue with a Vampire faction (not Vlad) in the South East Mountains. Once again they sent tons of armies at me and I couldn't destroy them all and recover fast enough to counter attack and hold captured settlements long enough to build them back up before the next wave of attacks came in. So it was the same deal as before: Capture a settlement, trade it for peace, and just hope the peace holds.

[SpeaksTooFast]

Dark Elves can be tough when they snowball and I think they are normally a tough matchup for the empire. If possible try to take out their port settlements so they can no longer spawn in the Black Arks.

If fighting a superior opponent it is best to try and keep the fight in their territory, don't worry so much about holding ground just try to destroy their infrastructure until they can no longer afford their armies. If practical try to gift conquered territory to other nearby factions so you don't have to defend it and you opponent has a harder time retaking it.