CA - PLEASE fix LOS and AI around handguns/black powder

[Blakhart]

As much as I love handguns, I almost always take Crossbows on my Dwarves and Empire.

Why?

Because the game handles Line of sight with handguns absolutely terribly. I dont even think its just LOS either, but can also be the AI handling of th eunit formations. If they get bunched up oddly or one rank is out of sorts with another rank, they simply dont want to do s t for me.

For the first time I am trying vampire coast and my only complaint is how badly the handgun units handle terrain and LOS.

Literally doing a battle just now... theres 3 units of Dwarf quarrelers sitting on flat ground at a Crossroads middle of the map. I ask my 4 units of Zombie handgunners to fire on them. Clear LOS, no terrain, no other units in the way and they act like theres an invisible wall. They literally run to within 5 meters of them before deciding they can actually shoot. Even though theres no trees, no hills, etc. I rematched this scenario 4 times just to try out different angles and test a few things with little variation on the final result.

And you betcha its wayyy worse on maps that actually have a hill.

10 turns ago against skaven, a unit of slingers was sitting just behind the crest of a small hillock. The handgunners got to the point they could see more than 75% of the other unit at waist height or better...and they still couldnt fire. Cresting the hill was no better, because apparently the game decided that they didnt have a proper angle to shoot downwards either....


Theres no arguing the firepower and potential damage output of a solid blackpowder salvo. However the games current handling of LOS and how the AI makes these units behave is abysmal. GIve me a Xbow or Archer unit any day over direct fire.

Its been like this since you messed with ranged units and did the overhaul about halfway through Warhammer 2 and youve never corrected it since.

[Isaac]

it is not just handguns. many ranged units have big problems actually attacking in this game. it was a problem since the game came out, and it hasn't bee nfixed yet. with how CA is doing things right now, it may never be fixed.

[Ant Ra]

I think everyone knows that. And I think I have found something like a solution for now. First of all, you have to remember that ranged units basically try to avoid friendly fire. With units that shoot ballistically this is hardly a problem. But horizontally firing units often refuse to shoot at the enemy when their own close combatants are in front of them. Ballistic units do this too, but less often.
Flanking clearly helps here. First "catch" the enemies with close combatants, then position the gunpowder units on the left and right and give the order to fire. Or just standard formation in checkerboard pattern.

Second possibility: because of the terrain invisible walls are created. you don't see it on the map, but you notice it when ranged fighters suddenly become inactive or infantry/cavalry suddenly run a detour, although straight ahead seems free. If that's the case, I just reposition the ranged fighters, point them at the enemy and leave them there without a direct order to shoot. They usually start shooting on their own at any targets within range. If not, I position them until they start firing automatically. This can be a pixel... When I then select targets, they almost always fall back into inactivity.

Sometimes with some special commanders/lords of legends they seem to have something like a jam to attack them with distance weapons. I move them around until they shoot automatically. The latter also seems to me to be a real bug, while everything else is more like a glitch, programmed poorly.

[Sarissofoi]

Can confirm but for empire handgunners. Sometimes they just sit and don't shoot or move to shoot. Its completely fugged up.

[SarmatII]

Take screenshots of such examples.

Go down to their pov, you will see a clear obstruction either terrain or your own units blocking LoS.

[chickabumpbump]

Originally posted by SarmatII:

Take screenshots of such examples.

Go down to their pov, you will see a clear obstruction either terrain or your own units blocking LoS.

Nope this happens all the time with the Dawi, engineers are useless other than their buffs

[IonizedMercury]

They function fine if you make the least bit of effort to position them correctly.

But hey, pester CA enough and they'll allow gunners to shoot through your other units again because the game needs to be maximum stupid.

[Wolfen]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

They function fine if you make the least bit of effort to position them correctly.

But hey, pester CA enough and they'll allow gunners to shoot through your other units again because the game needs to be maximum stupid.

No need to sugarcoat how bad ranged units are working in this game.
You can make them work, but you shouldn't be need to the way it is now.
Its not the game thats maximum stupid here.

[Aleera]

Draw a direct line from your unit's shoulders to the enemy shoulders, if there's something inbetween that's not hostile, they won't fire.

Certain objects on the battlefield will obstruct fire lines as well. Examples being, fences, railings on the inside of castle walls, destroyed chariots.

Could be as bad as it was in game 1 and 2, where your unit's would aim at the top right most unit of a enemy formation. This would mean your entire unit would fire if even a single enemy model was in sight, aim for the top right most unit and if said unit would happen to be behind cover, well you can guess what happens then.

Take your poison, unit's firing into walls and waste ammo or unit's not firing because they have no clear target. I personally prefer my unit's not to waste ammo shooting at map doodads.

[Isaac]

Can someone please shoot the necromancer

[dulany67]

There are a lot of complicated issues with LoS here. There are map problems. The UI is not good at indicating obstruction. We have a game that leans into RTS which doesn't lend itself to zooming into ground level. AI behavior when being obstructed is not very good. The nature of formations in the game does not allow parts of a gun line not engaged with melee to wrap around and use their weapons.

We shouldn't expect an overhaul of the system at this point, but it can be hoped that the rumored new engine will marry melee and firearms in a more flexible way.

But also, people who pretend there aren't problems are showing a lack of imagination. If the system we have is acceptable for the game as it is, acceptable can be a long way from good.

[chickabumpbump]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

They function fine if you make the least bit of effort to position them correctly.

But hey, pester CA enough and they'll allow gunners to shoot through your other units again because the game needs to be maximum stupid.

Which the skaven should do but don’t

[CrUsHeR]

Gunpowder units sometimes require a direct attack order to work. And they don't play well with uneven ground.

So make sure they have a 100% ideal line of sight (zoom to ground level and check).
Give them targets to shoot. They can be pretty devastating.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by Isaac:

Can someone please shoot the necromancer

My LOS is blocked. :(

[GIBBYDAMAN]

band aid fix but it does help occasionally to force hold then tell them to fire https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2869716515

[Sarissofoi]

The most frustrating problem is that they worked better before. Now they can work but also can just stood and do nothing even if they should shoot.
It may be issue with rules prohibiting them friendly fire or LoS but gimmicky terrain may be also at fault. Considering that you often fight 20+ units battles you can't be reasonable baby sit every gunpowder units checking LoS from 1st person view. And then they don't shoot anyway. The battle maps being garbage is not helping either.