Armored kossars and real life pistol/sword and shield soldiers?

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

I really like the concept of armored kossars for kislev, giving your frontline shieldwall pistols to soften up the incoming enemy feels so cool to me but its got me wondering if there are any real life equivalents to this?

I feel like probably not I'm guessing at the point where you could arm soldiers in such a way you could just give them rifles, it makes sense in the world of warhammer fantasy where gunpowder is limited and 60-80% of whats coming at you won't care that you just shot 100 of their own troops and still come barreling at you but id still like to know.

[Amereth]

Considering gun powder and how stable it is.

I assume making a pistol back then was harder than a rifle.

So Manufacturing/Cost was probably an issue.

Anyway im no expert at all and it is just a guess.

[Fastwinstondoom]

No, I think affordable pistols(flintlocks) came into common use much, much later than matchlock muskets on the battlefields. The closest I can think of(and they're not really that close at all) are the Reiters / Schwarze Reiters of the 16th and 17th centuries. Heavily armored horsemen with wheel lock pistols who would fire them before charging into melee with their swords.

[SpeaksTooFast]

Was curious about this so looked it up. Have not verrified anything in this article but at a glance seems on point and points to mixed pike/arquebus/hand cannon type formations being used by a number of armies.
https://www.thecollector.com/first-guns/

[Ashardalon]

prettysure there was even a gun inside a shield
but you would have to search trough the forgotten weapon playlist for that
the thing is once guns got advanced enough to not just be hand cannons, both armor and shields became less used rather quickly, in historical terms atleast
since both of those where a lot more expensive then the gun that made them useless

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by Fastwinstondoom:

No, I think affordable pistols(flintlocks) came into common use much, much later than matchlock muskets on the battlefields. The closest I can think of(and they're not really that close at all) are the Reiters / Schwarze Reiters of the 16th and 17th centuries. Heavily armored horsemen with wheel lock pistols who would fire them before charging into melee with their swords.

Yeah I figured as much.

Originally posted by SpeaksTooFast:

Was curious about this so looked it up. Have not verrified anything in this article but at a glance seems on point and points to mixed pike/arquebus/hand cannon type formations being used by a number of armies.
https://www.thecollector.com/first-guns/

yeah both kislev with streltsi rifles and chaos dwarfs have pole axe rifles.

[MrSoul]

I mean modern day police/military commonly use ballistic shields and a pistol.

Here’s a historical example(ofc their image link is broken tho lol)
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/27233
But that is a gun shield example, which think was a generally more common idea than just equipping a soldier with a pistol and shield.

Reality tho why don’t see it beyond things like riot control, house clearing etc is because pistols are garbo lol like fr, bad accuracy with shorter barrels, less range and stopping power therefore and typically more expensive than a rifle. So like, in practical usage, you’re the dude at armoury ordering weapons etc. why hell wouldn’t just order more rifles unless(like kings guard example above) had a specific regiment thought out in advanced.

So yeah, certainly concept did exist throughout history and even arguably till today, but in actual warfare; better off with a rifle and no shield anyways, logistically at least and that’s probably why appears to have existed but been rarely implemented in any actual numbers let alone entire regiments etc.

Oh last note, ya’ll ever tried reloading a black powder gun(pistol or not)? Familiar with basic concept at least? Yeah try doing a two handed operation while got some massive ass shield weighing down one arm lol game is entirely unrealistic in that sense.

[Amereth]

Originally posted by Mr.Soul:

Oh last note, ya’ll ever tried reloading a black powder gun(pistol or not)? Familiar with basic concept at least? Yeah try doing a two handed operation while got some massive ass shield weighing down one arm lol game is entirely unrealistic in that sense.

I remember seeing somekind of small shield attached to the forearm leaving both hands free. I have no clue if it was common or not but i would actually think it is possible with a small shield.

Of course if we are talking about massive shields then no... They would not reload and switch to melee as soon as they are empty.


I would be surprised if officers wearing pistol during that period would waste their time reloading instead of just using their sabre during an encounter.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by Mr.Soul:

Oh last note, ya’ll ever tried reloading a black powder gun(pistol or not)? Familiar with basic concept at least? Yeah try doing a two handed operation while got some massive ass shield weighing down one arm lol game is entirely unrealistic in that sense.

Yeah I imagine armored kossars are more like the witch hunter from vermintide, with either multiple pistols in their belts or just one for a opening volly before entering combat.

[Ashardalon]

Originally posted by Amereth:

I remember seeing somekind of small shield attached to the forearm leaving both hands free. I have no clue if it was common or not but i would actually think it is possible with a small shield.

Of course if we are talking about massive shields then no... They would not reload and switch to melee as soon as they are empty.

I would be surprised if officers wearing pistol during that period would waste their time reloading instead of just using their sabre during an encounter.

a buckler is the one you tie to the forearm
but honestly a towershield can be just put down and hunkered behind as you reload, wich was a thing that people did with crossbows wich are a lot harder to reload then blackpowder

for officers
those are nobles, and those would do the pirate thing of just carrying more guns for more shots

[FM25]

While pistols were quite common in early gunpowder warfare, they seem to have been a cavalry thing. Actually, pistols never seem to have been used much by infantry at all up to this day, at least from what I am aware of. I guess it's just better to use rifles/muskets and not worth the additional cost/weight/maintanance to carry several guns per footsoldier? Although cavalry typically did that, often carrying like two pistols and a carbine.

I could also easily imagine that some individual infantrymen, especially back when they had to supply their own weapons (i.e., before the standing armies of the later 17th century) would carry a pistol around in reserve or something. Firearms weren't all that expensive even early on, in fact their moderate price was probably one reason they replaced crossbows so relatively quickly AFAIK. Of course, early cavalry pistols were freaking heavy, hardly pistols by today's standards, but there were lighter ones as well, otherwise used for civilian self-defense (but probably less effective).

Edit: One thing that I just thought of is that, at the time, it might not have been very safe to carry a loaded pistol around in your belt? Better to carry them on the saddle? Just speculation

[SpeaksTooFast]

Originally posted by FM25:

Actually, pistols never seem to have been used much by infantry at all up to this day, at least from what I am aware of.

In my personal experience modern pistols are not uncommon as a back up weapon but in most situations the rifle is more effective. In most infantry deployments weight carried can be a major factor in combat effectiveness of soldiers so you would want to prioritize carrying more ammo for your most effective weapon.

[Father Ribs]

Pike and shot era; you had dedicated long-arms firearms (smothbore) in small detachments working in concert with pike formations. Google "Tercio" for a popular formation used by the Spanish and the sort of bugaboo of the era.

Gustavus Adolphus brought back a more linear form of warfare; larger pike blocks were unwieldy and slow. Lines were much easier to maneuver and coupled with mobile cannon, could run and shoot circles around the clunky old formations.

Shield and pistol isn't something that happened in that era. Pistols were a common item though for cavalry, where they would carry a brace of pistols in bandoleers, run up, shoot, and pull back...this is what the Empire Pistoliers is based on. There were dragoons, which were essentially infantry that used horses to maneuver quickly, but they didn't fight from horseback (until later).

I assume they used much more complicated firing mechanisms than long arms did because of ease of priming them and being able to store them in any direction besides barrel-up,

The concept of missile fire while advancing into combat is as old as time; you can look at the Roman pilum and later darts are a prime example. While I haven't read any real analysis of boarding combat action, bringing a brace of pistols with you or a scattergun to use before charging in makes a lot of sense.

There are also a lot of pistols that have intergrated weapon forms, from clubs to even axes, though I don't think I'd want to fire a pistol after using it as a bludgeoning object.

I shoot with my right hand and swing a sword with my left, so I imagine it's not an impossible thing to happen. There are examples of gun-shields and also small heavy bucklers that would have been able to deflect a shot if you were really lucking and they were aiming at your center-of-mass, but a lardge body shield strong enough to block a pistol shot would be really unwieldy; most heavy cavalry at that point just work a heavy breatplate and a helm .

[Father Ribs]

Also; historical Strelski used an bardiche-like axe in concert with their fireamrs. There is however a weapon in the Tower of London that looks like the weapons the Warhammer Strekski used. Most of the more funky weapons they have there (definitely worth visiting!) are more likely gifts and parade arms than something you'd want to rely on in extended fighting.

[Kōizumi Seishiro]

people here really exploring the tactical and logistical and reloading aspects of a fantasy kislevite unit? next to that unit you have an all-terrain "sani" (sled) pulled by bears with 6 heavily armored arquebusers! C'mon guys! If you agree with the idea that medieval economy can pull off that many horse and tamed bear units (how do they feed them I wonder?), why not imagine that they somehow managed to produce average quality primitive weapons to use as pistol/clubs with shields? after all, next door south we got multiple units of pistoliers, machine gun cav and even tanks/ ifvs!

[Father Ribs]

Originally posted by Kōizumi Seishiro:

next to that unit you have an all-terrain "sani" (sled) pulled by bears with 6 heavily armored arquebusers!

Probably a take on the RL Hussite war wagons, though I believe they used to chain them together into field fortifications, rather than running around like uber-chariots.

Come to think of it, many chariots were more missile platforms than shock weapons.