So in terms of the forces of Order and Chaos, where do the vampires stand?

[Nella]

Ok so a lot of factions you can side to Order or Chaos, but the Vampires never made sense to me.

On one hand, yes, there are conflicts between vampires and the forces of order such as between Sylvania and The Empire, but there are also alliances between them, such as during the End Times.

And on the other hand, the 4 Chaos Gods hates vampires.

Nurgle - Necromancy and the immortal nature of Vampires goes directly against the cycle of rot, decay and rebirth he is trying to create. Things that never rot, never decay and never dies are against Nurgle.

Slaanesh - Again, necromancy raises emotionless thralls. The use of these armies deprive Slaanesh of emotion, other than the vampire generals. Thus Slaanesh is against them as well.

Khorne - Reviving fallen warriors not only deprives the skull throne of skulls, but it goes against Khorne's code of honour.

Tzeentch - Perhaps the only one that can like vampires because Tzeentch is a dice roll.

SO none of the great chaos gods wants them around, but the order forces also don't want them around.

So are vampires then in the middle?

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Nella:

...

If we are talking alignments then Warhammer races are typically divided between Order and Destruction. Rather then Order and Chaos.

Vampires can be argued to be on the destruction side but aren't followers of chaos (Same being true for Greenskins).

Basically, the chaos gods aren't the only bad guys in warhammer.

[Enelith]

Vampires are part of the Destruction faction (similar to GS).

Long story short, It's easier to deal with Ogres than Vampires, specially when the later see you as nothing but ants (or even less meaningful), just want to dominate the mortal races and have eternal night.

Vampires are definitely not in the middle.

(Also, the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend ~ Chaos, about Vampires and their relationship with mankind)

[kilen]

VCoasts are somewhere between destruction and neutral.
VCounts are slightly more chaotic-related on the ladder I assume.
Not as destructive as chaos tide, and not as neutral as TK, from which they descended (somehow, after multiple steps & events), but still.
Pretty evil, but far from the worst I would say…

[stun]

Vampires are chaos
Nagash is order

[cb4n28]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Nella:

...

If we are talking alignments then Warhammer races are typically divided between Order and Destruction. Rather then Order and Chaos.

Vampires can be argued to be on the destruction side but aren't followers of chaos (Same being true for Greenskins).

Basically, the chaos gods aren't the only bad guys in warhammer.

Isn't the Order vs Destruction thing more of a AoS thing? Can you direct me to the Warhammer Fantasy source for it?

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by cb4n28:

Isn't the Order vs Destruction thing more of a AoS thing? Can you direct me to the Warhammer Fantasy source for it?

Warhammer fantasy rulebook, 8th edition, page 136, Allied Armies - Alliance and alignment.

The races are divided into "the forces of order", "the forces of destruction" and "non aligned forces".

Edit: Note that this doesn't mean that they are allied to each other or anything (So its not as much a "vs" thing), its just dividing them up in set alignments. Even races within the forces of order fight each other often (heck even factions within races fight each other often).

[cb4n28]

Originally posted by Nella:

Ok so a lot of factions you can side to Order or Chaos, but the Vampires never made sense to me.

On one hand, yes, there are conflicts between vampires and the forces of order such as between Sylvania and The Empire, but there are also alliances between them, such as during the End Times.

And on the other hand, the 4 Chaos Gods hates vampires.

Nurgle - Necromancy and the immortal nature of Vampires goes directly against the cycle of rot, decay and rebirth he is trying to create. Things that never rot, never decay and never dies are against Nurgle.

Slaanesh - Again, necromancy raises emotionless thralls. The use of these armies deprive Slaanesh of emotion, other than the vampire generals. Thus Slaanesh is against them as well.

Khorne - Reviving fallen warriors not only deprives the skull throne of skulls, but it goes against Khorne's code of honour.

Tzeentch - Perhaps the only one that can like vampires because Tzeentch is a dice roll.

SO none of the great chaos gods wants them around, but the order forces also don't want them around.

So are vampires then in the middle?

Generally speaking Warhammer doesn't have a big unified "Order" side or "Chaos" side. It's much more fractious than that. Everyone is trying to pursue their own ends and can wind up fighting everyone else. Which makes sense when you consider the lore was created to provide a backstory for the tabletop where players could pit any armies they wanted against each other.

It isn't like WoW where everyone is either Alliance or Horde.

Vampires in the lore actually have a wide range of motivations and allegiances. The Vampire Counts are the most prominent and well fleshed out vampires and they generally want to openly conquer the living and use them as livestock, which tends to pit them against basically everyone. Living creatures in general don't like their agenda for obvious reasons, Chaos worshippers usually have their own agendas that don't align with a powerful Vampire lording it over everyone, there have been several conflicts between practitioners of necromancy and the Skaven over warpstone, Vampires enslaving everyone probably isn't part of the Great Plan and definitely makes it harder for Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarves to enslave everyone.

Basically nobody likes the undead although some might be willing to temporarily cooperate with them

[cb4n28]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by cb4n28:

Isn't the Order vs Destruction thing more of a AoS thing? Can you direct me to the Warhammer Fantasy source for it?

Warhammer fantasy rulebook, 8th edition, page 136, Allied Armies - Alliance and alignment.

Races are divided into "the forces of order", "the forces of destruction" and "non aligned forces".

Thanks, I will take a look

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by cb4n28:

Thanks, I will take a look

(Do read my edit as well).

[Notright]

Originally posted by Nella:

Tzeentch - Perhaps the only one that can like vampires because Tzeentch is a dice roll.

Tzeentch is all about mutability and change. The undead are the opposite. They promote stagnation via unlife, never changing or growing. That's why Tzeentch hates the undead.

[cb4n28]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by cb4n28:

Thanks, I will take a look

(Do read my edit as well).

Took a look. It feels like less of a strict lore thing and more of a general rubric to help tabletop players decide which of their armies might make sense to team up for a game without having to get into the minutiae of the lore and setting. Like if you've got four friends with four different armies who haven't read a scrap of lore and want to do a 2v2 and are wondering if it makes more sense for the Skaven army to team up with the Wood Elf army or the Greenskin army.


Like there's no Orc Shaman out there who tells his boys that "We'z Destruction so we gunna team up with those dead rotters over there to fight the stunties!" while the Thane on the opposite end of the battlefield is thinking "Two destruction factions?! By Grimnir lets call the knife ears in the woods to help us! They're Order aligned too! Maybe wake up that old undead human king in the barrow over there, Tomb Kings are Unaligned and might join us!"

It's definitely in the rulebook like you say and so is definitely part of the setting, I had heard somewhere it was an AoS thing. I'm not sure I'd put a lot of importance on this type of classification from a lore perspective though, it's extremely simplistic compared to other sources.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by cb4n28:

...

While my knowledge of AoS is a bit lacking, i do get the impression that its indeed a much bigger deal in that universe (even if i'm a tad sceptical if the races in AoS would refer to themselves as belonging to order/destruction as well).

That said, i was just referring to alignments as is rather then any sort of grand alliance between races or anything like that. As i said in my edit, it doesn't mean they are allied in anyway.

[MrSoul]

Tzeech’ hates them too because they don’t change, undeath is ultimate stagnation.

To me they are a grey area far as “good and evil” go if such concepts even apply to warhammer in the grand scheme of things.

A lot of them too we’re manipulated, or case of our new LH, simply well…ya know, into being a vampire. They are still “human” so guess end of day would trust one more than some slavering god of chaos who only wants entire world to be destroyed, or turned into some parody of reality otherwise. Plus most still feed on somewhat healthy living humans, chaos corrupting them or killing them off en masse, ya think why vamps in end will side with order, or most will.

[BigRockWall]

FWIW - Warhammer online grouped greenskins, dark elves, and chaos all on team destruction, and high elves, humans, and dwarves all on team order.

Vamps werent an option for that game, but its telling that marauder or chosen were classes available on the destruction factions roster. Unless they simply streamlined it into 2 rosters only for MMO gameplay purposes.

[Solvem Probler]

The Undead are an in-between. Necromancy is inimical to Chaos taint. It ultimately depends on the individual vampire or Tomb King how they treat other factions, although their state as undead beings will inevitably remove them from the living emotionally.