Chaos Dwarfs are too OP

[Mouse]

I just bought the DLC to see what all the fuss was about and they feel way too strong. I really hate how every DLC is more OP than the next, because all it does is make everything else feel underwhelming and need updating. It is a vicious cycle.

It makes little sense for such a small populated faction to be so strong. Even in the lore they are a minor power right? Some factions should be weak. That is part of the fun and diversity of the game.

Having for example a lord who is a spell caster, can run faster than most cavalry, is 'small unit size' and yet has more mass than Kholek Suneater.. It's just ridiculous. What is that dam suit made out of? He's also better in melee than most melee lords too of course.

[GeoG85]

When MEGA Games become so huge, they become impossible to balance. The Public Relations just say "Yea, we're working on it. We've hired a team." All they do is release more broken s*** to compete with yesterday's broken s***. That's their balance mantra.

When you have 100+ sides, you can't balance squat. Too many overlaps. Pull 1 string from here, you pull 10+ from the other side. So every company does this. I haven't seen anyone balance their game completely, unless it's Rock, Paper, Scissors, or Chess.

I mean, you're welcome to believe otherwise. "They're working on it." Does it look like they are?

[The Haney]

I play this as a single-player game, and personally in that setting I don't think balance really matters that much. But that's me.

[Mouse]

No i don't think they care about balancing at all, hence why they do it. I think a good example of this is Karl Franz's campaign, it used to be a fun campaign and the empire mechanics worked perfectly fine, it was also labelled a beginner campaign of course. Then WoC DLC released, and placed a bunch of OP lords around the empire and now i see lots of complaints that Empire needs a rework because the mechanics are broken. Actually no, it's the Warriors of Chaos who are "broken".

[Teh_Diplomat]

Objectively they're are not OP; they are strong - they are capable when you get them up and running; but, plenty of people struggle with them as well.

Limited roster cap, combined with multiple economic requirements, ensure that for every player that goes into Legendary/VH campaign and walk out 25 turns later with all their surrounding LL's dead; there are 3-4 people who restarted a campaign because mid-game they suffered insufficient raw materials to upgrade a main settlement, or not enough Armaments per turn to build adv. recruitment, but also increase the roster unit limits to counter the AIs improved units.


I mean with this update, Grimgor got even stronger with his start position and its development level being 2 from the get go.


He's got 6 stacks in some campaigns by turn 7; sure the AI might put together 5 stacks of Chorfs in the beginning from Zharr Naggrund, but its mostly chaff - you aren't up against their cream of the crop. His Trolls and Nasty Skulkers will make quick work of those Chorfs around you.

Hell, even Imrik is quite a good counter to them, once he's on his Dragon mind you.

[Teh_Diplomat]

Originally posted by Mouse:

No i don't think they care about balancing at all, hence why they do it. I think a good example of this is Karl Franz's campaign, it used to be a fun campaign and the empire mechanics worked perfectly fine, it was also labelled a beginner campaign of course. Then WoC DLC released, and placed a bunch of OP lords around the empire and now i see lots of complaints that Empire needs a rework because the mechanics are broken. Actually no, it's the Warriors of Chaos who are "broken".

Partly that is just Faction creep - as they work on the next faction an idea springs to mind; kind of like how we got undercities first in the Pirate Cove, and then a more fleshed out personalised version of that with the Ikit Claw DLC, and Skaven undercities.

For example, I can see an Empire re-work that is similar to the Conclave. No longer do you lose Imperial Authority because of some RNG Dilemma, but rather helping them (other Empire factions) stay alive unlocks seats faster in the Empire, and provides you benefits, instead of this broken system that only provides malus/penalties until you confederate them.

This happened to the Greenskins too, before their rework with the Waaagh and Scrap mechanic in WH2 with Grom the Paunch. They felt ridiculously underpowered (can't trade, supply lines busted your econ) and not very Ork like.

Or how about Chaos in Warhammer 1? I don't know about you guys, but I never felt like the End Times as Archaon, but rather like Pablo Escobar at his end; on the run from safe house to safe house, until I got cornered without replenishment by 4 stacks.

[Mr Chow]

Over Priced alright.

[Mania]

Having a small population has little to do with power. Sure, it does limit how much they can expand and how many troops they can field. That's why they stick to the Darklands and don't go outside much outside of raiding parties. They more than make up for their numbers with war machines, advanced gunpowder, Hob Goblins, laborers, magic, etc.

Yes, they are a minor power in the grand scheme of things. That is only because they're completely isolationist outside of the few raiding parties. But that does not make them weak. Their garrison at the Dark Fortress was able to stand their ground against Tamurkhan's (who's basically a Everchosen) army until their supply lines got cut off. Honestly, they probably would've won if they still had ammunition coming in (or if Tamurkhan didn't have plot armor).

So no, they aren't "weak" in the lore. Just VERY isolationist.

[matlajs]

Originally posted by Mouse:

Having for example a lord who is a spell caster, can run faster than most cavalry, is 'small unit size' and yet has more mass than Kholek Suneater.. It's just ridiculous. What is that dam suit made out of? He's also better in melee than most melee lords too of course.

don't know which particular LL of chorfs you mean, but unless they have their special items active they are barely mid tier duelants. also, be gratefull for their mass. it means, that the Kholek you mentioned, and many others may finally hit him, without just rolling him arround map and kill him with 3 proper hits.

also, as i read more of the thread, you should realise that CA should aim for balancing the game arround rather( right now) OP faction, fun to play. because most of the rest of the faction just became "do this, research that i don't care the bonuses are marginal" or need to bite through uninterresting trash to get 1-2 interresting bonuses( i exagerate now but, something like that). IMO WoC release is pretty weak demonstration and also their inability to make them progressie competition on the map. compensated with early deployable OP RoR units etc. My proposal on this would be, if anything, to give them free(cheated) unit upgrades of certain tier on certain turn onwards.

[Mania]

Originally posted by matlajs:

Originally posted by Mouse:

Having for example a lord who is a spell caster, can run faster than most cavalry, is 'small unit size' and yet has more mass than Kholek Suneater.. It's just ridiculous. What is that dam suit made out of? He's also better in melee than most melee lords too of course.

don't know which particular LL of chorfs you mean, but unless they have their special items active they are barely mid tier duelants. also, be gratefull for their mass. it means, that the Kholek you mentioned, and many others may finally hit him, without just rolling him arround map and kill him with 3 proper hits.

also, as i read more of the thread, you should realise that CA should aim for balancing the game arround rather( right now) OP faction, fun to play. because most of the rest of the faction just became "do this, research that i don't care the bonuses are marginal" or need to bite through uninterresting trash to get 1-2 interresting bonuses( i exagerate now but, something like that). IMO WoC release is pretty weak demonstration and also their inability to make them progressie competition on the map. compensated with early deployable OP RoR units etc. My proposal on this would be, if anything, to give them free(cheated) unit upgrades of certain tier on certain turn onwards.

He's talking about Astragoth. He does need a mass nerf, if nothing else.

[Chozer]

Originally posted by Mouse:

I just bought the DLC to see what all the fuss was about and they feel way too strong. I really hate how every DLC is more OP than the next, because all it does is make everything else feel underwhelming and need updating. It is a vicious cycle.

It makes little sense for such a small populated faction to be so strong. Even in the lore they are a minor power right? Some factions should be weak. That is part of the fun and diversity of the game.

Having for example a lord who is a spell caster, can run faster than most cavalry, is 'small unit size' and yet has more mass than Kholek Suneater.. It's just ridiculous. What is that dam suit made out of? He's also better in melee than most melee lords too of course.

in a singleplayer game rather too strong than too weak

[matlajs]

Originally posted by Mania:

Originally posted by matlajs:

don't know which particular LL of chorfs you mean, but unless they have their special items active they are barely mid tier duelants. also, be gratefull for their mass. it means, that the Kholek you mentioned, and many others may finally hit him, without just rolling him arround map and kill him with 3 proper hits.

also, as i read more of the thread, you should realise that CA should aim for balancing the game arround rather( right now) OP faction, fun to play. because most of the rest of the faction just became "do this, research that i don't care the bonuses are marginal" or need to bite through uninterresting trash to get 1-2 interresting bonuses( i exagerate now but, something like that). IMO WoC release is pretty weak demonstration and also their inability to make them progressie competition on the map. compensated with early deployable OP RoR units etc. My proposal on this would be, if anything, to give them free(cheated) unit upgrades of certain tier on certain turn onwards.

He's talking about Astragoth. He does need a mass nerf, if nothing else.

i get he is just pissed off from a particular situation. i get that feeling. but this is not a place for demanding a "justice" :D and also very weak argument to. there are many more areas which needs attention, not even IMO, thats a fact, that some Astragoth being on top currently( which is also not true at all) is almost invisible problem.

[Professor H. Farnsworth]

They are not OP, strong yes, but so is every single faction if you know how to play as it. Chorfs are extremely limited and anything that has a longer range will make you wish you had 160+.

You'd think people have never played Dwarves before. Dwarf units where never a joke.

[Mouse]

Originally posted by Professor H. Farnsworth:

They are not OP, strong yes, but so is every single faction if you know how to play as it. Chorfs are extremely limited and anything that has a longer range will make you wish you had 160+.

You'd think people have never played Dwarves before. Dwarf units where never a joke.

Dwarves have weaknesses. No magic, no cavalry, no monsters.

Range disadvantage is not a big deal in this game, especially if you have cavalry and flying monsters. Those blunderbusses absolutely destroy units even with no buffs or ranks. Usually these strong short ranged missile troops are balanced by having a small amount of ammo, not the case with them though.

[☭Rosa]

theyre not op, theyre just fun.

[matlajs]

Originally posted by Professor H. Farnsworth:

They are not OP, strong yes, but so is every single faction if you know how to play as it. Chorfs are extremely limited and anything that has a longer range will make you wish you had 160+.

You'd think people have never played Dwarves before. Dwarf units where never a joke.

we can asume, that dwarves has little to no answer to chorfs right now. their c-bows outrange their shortguns and fire glaves, but magmatic canon will delete them in few salvos. if they chose to turtle and use catapults or canons, magmatic canons will aim for them instead and delete them first. they don't have single entity monster aside of their plane, but for the others, their rocket launcher with anti-1 entity amunition with few succesfull hits will cut their HP in half before they even close into range of glaves and shotguns. i would say that only problem they could have are iron drakes and their antilarge version, but without naything left to protect them......