First time trying Ogres, some questions.

[Hex]

So yeah, the race just never appealed to me so never got around to playing them until now. I'm a bit confused.

So all their good units come from the camp, which takes like 60 turns to build all the buildings for, that you can't move, that the AI can just delete by "randomly" spawning a rogue army next to it. That about right?

Most of their income relies on camp, and you have a limited number of them.

The contracts pay nothing and are always far away, often against factions you have treaties with.

All their melee units seem to be crap mid-late game, and it's much better to just recruit maneaters with pistols as the core of your army. Their ogre units look fine on stats, until you look at model counts, they just can't hang, not with that unit count and they are suuuper vulnerable to ranged damage. It's like a army of Crypt Horros, that you can't heal. Super great against gobbos, complete trash when someone hits back.

The faction seems kinda dumb, or am I missing something?

[algame]

Regarding contracts, I dunno if my game bugged out or not but occasionally I will see a contract for 50 or 60 K... which is absurd as most of them usually pay out only 2 or 3 K, making them hardly worth bothering with unless its taking a location I was already planning on. But a 5 figure payout?? Yes please, that can allow you to have stronger armies and stay in the red for a long time.

And its anecdotal evidence but the only campaigns in WH3 that I have gone 100+ turns is Skarbrand and Ogres, so there must be something appealing about the gameplay.

Its kind of ridiculous but also immensely enjoyable to make a Greasus stack with only Ironguts, optional mage and/or hunter if you want the mobility. Once Greasus is high enough level you can basically group formation at the start of the battle and right click on the enemy one single time, and these guys will clear out most AI armies while you sit back and watch.

Ogres utterly annihilate any armies that contain missile/arty as you will have over run them within 5 seconds making their archers and arty completely irrelevant. Especially vs the AI that has no idea how to play combined arms or target priority. The only counter to Ogres would be full stacks of halberds or whatever anti large, which of course the AI will never build.

I think the Greasus Ironguts stack has to be seen to be believed, its quite a thing of beauty, if you like 9 feet tall obese mongoloids plowing through the enemy army like it does not exist.

[algame]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hex:

Guys, I wasn't asking how to play them. I took out Belegar, Aranessa and Ikit by turn 22. I was simply wondering if there was some hidden or obscure thing I was missing because the campaign mechanics felt a bit wonky.

They are wonky, clearly the curse of being the budget teaser pre-order race. They are supposed to be nomadic but bizarrely have no horde mechanics even though CA have been perfecting horde gameplay over the years. Camps feel awful. etc.

I am sure they will get a do over at some point in the future.

But they are fun regardless if you dig the gameplay style.

[Hex]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย algame:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hex:

Guys, I wasn't asking how to play them. I took out Belegar, Aranessa and Ikit by turn 22. I was simply wondering if there was some hidden or obscure thing I was missing because the campaign mechanics felt a bit wonky.

They are wonky, clearly the curse of being the budget teaser pre-order race. They are supposed to be nomadic but bizarrely have no horde mechanics even though CA have been perfecting horde gameplay over the years. Camps feel awful. etc.

I am sure they will get a do over at some point in the future.

But they are fun regardless if you dig the gameplay style.

Should be able to move the camp at least. Hardly "nomadic" when you can't move.

[Teh_Diplomat]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hex:

Guys, I wasn't asking how to play them. I took out Belegar, Aranessa and Ikit by turn 22. I was simply wondering if there was some hidden or obscure thing I was missing because the campaign mechanics felt a bit wonky.

Nah, they just have the pre-order, odour to them.

Half-baked
Limited Roster
little-to-no thought to Mechanics (already required a change to how Camps work)
only a pair of lords, and only 1 (Greasus) even encounters other Ogres lol

[algame]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hex:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย algame:

They are wonky, clearly the curse of being the budget teaser pre-order race. They are supposed to be nomadic but bizarrely have no horde mechanics even though CA have been perfecting horde gameplay over the years. Camps feel awful. etc.

I am sure they will get a do over at some point in the future.

But they are fun regardless if you dig the gameplay style.

Should be able to move the camp at least. Hardly "nomadic" when you can't move.

Yea thats my point.

And also meat mechanic is awful, you maybe have issues at the start of a campaign, first few turns, but then I find my armies are all at 200 - 300 meat permanently so its completely redundant.

So every Ogre mechanic: camps, meat, contracts, bignames, all failures.

[Defmonkey]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hex:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย algame:

They are wonky, clearly the curse of being the budget teaser pre-order race. They are supposed to be nomadic but bizarrely have no horde mechanics even though CA have been perfecting horde gameplay over the years. Camps feel awful. etc.

I am sure they will get a do over at some point in the future.

But they are fun regardless if you dig the gameplay style.

Should be able to move the camp at least. Hardly "nomadic" when you can't move.

This is an interesting point, I wonder if it would not been better if they opted for a black ark/pirate ship on land mechanic instead of the current one. A limited amount of course, and maybe cool downs for pack up / setting up to stop bait & switch cheesing.

[Many-Named]

yeah the contract mechanic is borked, completely meaningless unless you happen to do it by mistake or its target happens to waddle by.

Other than that, they rock.

[Hex]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Defmonkey:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hex:

Should be able to move the camp at least. Hardly "nomadic" when you can't move.

This is an interesting point, I wonder if it would not been better if they opted for a black ark/pirate ship on land mechanic instead of the current one. A limited amount of course, and maybe cool downs for pack up / setting up to stop bait & switch cheesing.

The camps should work like Black Arks in more ways than just moving. The building construction times and costs are abysmal.

[Hex]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Liminal Boundary:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hex:

Yes the camp upkeep is small, but when you take an army out

By 60 turns I mean from the start of the game, you don't have any tech to grow them and the contracts are pure RNG garbage

And all it takes is 200 turns to reach that tech

I recently started a Realms of Chaos campaign as Greasus, so I might as well address this.

First, you don't need to take the army out of the camp ever.

It doesn't take 60 turns to level them unless you let AI kill your camps. Build the population building first. Also I think you do get some buffs from elsewhere too, for me leveling them was basically just about if I have the money.

I did no contracts since they were either too far or required me to declare war on someone I didn't want to.
And I lost camps multiple times after getting backstabbed and having no armies in them.
Adding to that, you don't even need max level camps to recruit decent units.

It takes nowhere near 200 turns to reach the "extra camps for each level 5 camp" tech I think, I've got my second Daemon soul, and I'm most of the way through the tech tree (while grabbing the techs I liked along the way). You don't need to take every tech you see, and also don't need too many camps early. Greasus gives an extra camp via skill tree too.

Overall, at least the Greasus Realms of Chaos campaign is now much easier compared to when this game released. So many new potential allies, and I'd rather deal with Chaos Dwarfs than all those Skaven and Greenskins if you go that way.

Also you can make basically anyone your ally by giving them settlements, you don't even need them that much because camps. Ogres have amazing diplomacy.

Just beware your idiot camps raiding someone who your want to ally after you give them territory, making them hate you.
That happened to me with Drazhoath and I had to put him down.

Omg I'm so sick of people posting things based on how they "feel".

First of all, it takes 4 turns to even be able to build your first camp. Second, even if you had 1+ pop surplus every single turn and didn't build anything else (because they also use surplus), and you upgraded the camp level every time you hit the required surplus it would take a minimum of 46 turns, but because that's not how it's going to play out you can safely add 10 turns to it because you have to build other things in the camp too. Then it takes 5 turns to build the best unit buildings.

This is if you always had enough money. This is basic elementary school math. Once you have tech that gives you +surplus when you plop down a camp, it gets a lot faster but your first camp is gonna take awhile.

Contrast that to skaven that can get an unbeatable army online by like turn 15.

[Vegetable Vampire]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Hex:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Liminal Boundary:

I recently started a Realms of Chaos campaign as Greasus, so I might as well address this.

First, you don't need to take the army out of the camp ever.

It doesn't take 60 turns to level them unless you let AI kill your camps. Build the population building first. Also I think you do get some buffs from elsewhere too, for me leveling them was basically just about if I have the money.

I did no contracts since they were either too far or required me to declare war on someone I didn't want to.
And I lost camps multiple times after getting backstabbed and having no armies in them.
Adding to that, you don't even need max level camps to recruit decent units.

It takes nowhere near 200 turns to reach the "extra camps for each level 5 camp" tech I think, I've got my second Daemon soul, and I'm most of the way through the tech tree (while grabbing the techs I liked along the way). You don't need to take every tech you see, and also don't need too many camps early. Greasus gives an extra camp via skill tree too.

Overall, at least the Greasus Realms of Chaos campaign is now much easier compared to when this game released. So many new potential allies, and I'd rather deal with Chaos Dwarfs than all those Skaven and Greenskins if you go that way.

Also you can make basically anyone your ally by giving them settlements, you don't even need them that much because camps. Ogres have amazing diplomacy.

Just beware your idiot camps raiding someone who your want to ally after you give them territory, making them hate you.
That happened to me with Drazhoath and I had to put him down.

Omg I'm so sick of people posting things based on how they "feel".

First of all, it takes 4 turns to even be able to build your first camp. Second, even if you had 1+ pop surplus every single turn and didn't build anything else (because they also use surplus), and you upgraded the camp level every time you hit the required surplus it would take a minimum of 46 turns, but because that's not how it's going to play out you can safely add 10 turns to it because you have to build other things in the camp too. Then it takes 5 turns to build the best unit buildings.

This is if you always had enough money. This is basic elementary school math. Once you have tech that gives you +surplus when you plop down a camp, it gets a lot faster but your first camp is gonna take awhile.

Contrast that to skaven that can get an unbeatable army online by like turn 15.

I already explained on the previous page why your reasoning is non-sense. You have not yet replied to my post instead of ignoring it and going after low hanging fruit.

[killtastic201]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Defmonkey:

Also the heroes are very useful. Hunters on stonehorns are complete wrecking balls.

Getting a stone horn at turn 30 because you leveled your hunter up feels amazing. being able to throw some strong magic items on him and have a absolute powerhouse of a unit feels even better.

[Kel'Thuzad]

Mechanics aside, both LL's are just so ugly and unappealing that I've never touched them.
I'd almost prefer to disband them and play with a regular Tyrant.

[Vegetable Vampire]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kel'Thuzad:

Mechanics aside, both LL's are just so ugly and unappealing that I've never touched them.
I'd almost prefer to disband them and play with a regular Tyrant.

I didn't know this was a beauty contest. Vlad is gonna have a rough time.
I guess you play Morathi a lot then?

[Kel'Thuzad]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Vegetable Vampire:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kel'Thuzad:

Mechanics aside, both LL's are just so ugly and unappealing that I've never touched them.
I'd almost prefer to disband them and play with a regular Tyrant.

I didn't know this was a beauty contest. Vlad is gonna have a rough time.
I guess you play Morathi a lot then?

Nah, I'm not talking about beauty, they just look weird/stupid. One is pulling a cart and the other is riding one. I also don't like Volkmar or Ghorst for similar reasons.
It's more about the mounts. Give me a lord on foot, horse or flying monster and I'm happy.

I tried Greasus briefly with the reskin mod, but ogres aren't really my style.

[[CT] Forced Jaketh]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kel'Thuzad:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Vegetable Vampire:

I didn't know this was a beauty contest. Vlad is gonna have a rough time.
I guess you play Morathi a lot then?

Nah, I'm not talking about beauty, they just look weird/stupid. One is pulling a cart and the other is riding one. I also don't like Volkmar or Ghorst for similar reasons.
It's more about the mounts. Give me a lord on foot, horse or flying monster and I'm happy.

I tried Greasus briefly with the reskin mod, but ogres aren't really my style.

Greasus is so rich and lazy in the lore that he refuses to walk because its for poor people and his gnoblars are meant to line his path with gold coins as he gets wheeled around with a team of gnoblars behind him picking up all the coins haha but they cant animate that in the game lo. Apparently though once greasus gets up hes actually a lot faster than he looks and went toe to toe with Grimgor Ironhide in melee combat.