First time trying Ogres, some questions.

[Hex]

So yeah, the race just never appealed to me so never got around to playing them until now. I'm a bit confused.

So all their good units come from the camp, which takes like 60 turns to build all the buildings for, that you can't move, that the AI can just delete by "randomly" spawning a rogue army next to it. That about right?

Most of their income relies on camp, and you have a limited number of them.

The contracts pay nothing and are always far away, often against factions you have treaties with.

All their melee units seem to be crap mid-late game, and it's much better to just recruit maneaters with pistols as the core of your army. Their ogre units look fine on stats, until you look at model counts, they just can't hang, not with that unit count and they are suuuper vulnerable to ranged damage. It's like a army of Crypt Horros, that you can't heal. Super great against gobbos, complete trash when someone hits back.

The faction seems kinda dumb, or am I missing something?

[Aleera]

Kinda. Their melee unit's are amazing, especially the maneaters. Pistols are decent, but overrated.

Maneaters with ironfists become absolute beasts, tanky and they murder just about anything short of elite polearms.
Crushers with greatweapons kill any other large unit ingame.

Ogre's are one of the races that actually are the least weak to ranged enemies of them all. Base 54 speed on all their monstrous infantry, which you can increase by spending food before a fight. Not to mention the +10 mA feast for 10 turns.
Ogre Kingdom actually can heal, they have access to several healing mechanics, for 1 a army ability, which also heals vigour. Trollguts spells. And fighting in the radius of a camp that has the right building.

Ogre kingdom by far is the most braindead rush faction in single player there is and it's glorious.

About the Camp, they can hold unit's and will always be a settlement battle. They can have 85% Upkeep reduction, so they can hold quite the elite army.

Contracts are a waste of a mechanic though.

But Hex. Really, if Ogre kingdoms are not your thing, don't play them, noone is gonna force you too.

[Hex]

Nooo, they are fine. My current army is 4 ironblaster, 4 harpoon monsters, 4 great weap crushers, Tyrant + 2 casters, fire and maw and the rest are maneaters.

I had a pretty rough time with Wuuz and a horde of savage orc big uns. Horde of slayers also not optimal. Maybe you don't have such anal enemies with Goldtooth. Both of these enemies is why I prefer pistols lol. Ironfist + 16 Slayers is no joke.

I just wanted to ask if I was missing something.

[Beje]

Just a couple of corrections, if you'll allow me. You can have as many camps as there are settlements on the map basically. At the end-ish of the tech tree there's one that gives you an extra camp capacity for each camp that you get to tier 5.

They grow slow, yes. They cost a ton of money. But you can essentially customize your garrison as you please, with a very hefty upkeep reduction so it's basically free. You just have to hire some units there. I think the upkeep is a small price to pay considering you can throw only elite units in them to defend.

Contracts are absolute garbage, I agree. A mechanic as comparably useless as the treasure hunting one from Vampire Coast. Absolutely not worth the time investment for the pitiful rewards.

I think Skrag is a significantly better LL than Goldtooth since he can actually fight for starters and I just think this faction is better overall. So I would recommend giving Skrag the Slaughterer a try as well. Gorgers doomstack used to be absolutely stupid strong at launch. They nerfed it since then but it's still pretty good.

*Edit: Something I forgot to mention. Diplomacy neutrality! Ogres are one of the few factions which are kind of neutral with both Order and Chaos factions, so you can pretty much pick who you want to side with.

[Hex]

Originally posted by Beje:

Just a couple of corrections, if you'll allow me. You can have as many camps as there are settlements on the map basically. At the end-ish of the tech tree there's one that gives you an extra camp capacity for each camp that you get to tier 5.

They grow slow, yes. They cost a ton of money. But you can essentially customize your garrison as you please, with a very hefty upkeep reduction so it's basically free. You just have to hire some units there. I think the upkeep is a small price to pay considering you can throw only elite units in them to defend.

Contracts are absolute garbage, I agree. A mechanic as comparably useless as the treasure hunting one from Vampire Coast. Absolutely not worth the time investment for the pitiful rewards.

I think Skrag is a significantly better LL than Goldtooth since he can actually fight for starters and I just think this faction is better overall. So I would recommend giving Skrag the Slaughterer a try as well. Gorgers doomstack used to be absolutely stupid strong at launch. They nerfed it since then but it's still pretty good.

*Edit: Something I forgot to mention. Diplomacy neutrality! Ogres are one of the few factions which are kind of neutral with both Order and Chaos factions, so you can pretty much pick who you want to side with.

As I said, I was fighting Wurzzag and Ironfist so yes, I'm playing as Skrag, and I have treaties with Wood Elves and Empire while I run around the thunderdome clobbering Dwarfs and Skaven.

[Beje]

Originally posted by Hex:

As I said, I was fighting Wurzzag and Ironfist so yes, I'm playing as Skrag, and I have treaties with Wood Elves and Empire while I run around the thunderdome clobbering Dwarfs and Skaven.

Yeah that's fair. I could have deduced that info based on what you said. Sorry my bad, it's late here. Still, hoping you'll have some fun with the big ol nasty fokers. I would also suggest trying SFO mod once it's patched for 3.0. It's mostly just tweaks and improvements for ogres, like better Big Names, better sacrifices to the maw, some new techs, tweaked a bunch of values stuff like that. I didn't get to finish a SFO ogres campaign so I can't tell you if it's better than vanilla or not, but I plan to soon.

[Hex]

Originally posted by Beje:

Originally posted by Hex:

As I said, I was fighting Wurzzag and Ironfist so yes, I'm playing as Skrag, and I have treaties with Wood Elves and Empire while I run around the thunderdome clobbering Dwarfs and Skaven.

Yeah that's fair. I could have deduced that info based on what you said. Sorry my bad, it's late here. Still, hoping you'll have some fun with the big ol nasty fokers. I would also suggest trying SFO mod once it's patched for 3.0. It's mostly just tweaks and improvements for ogres, like better Big Names, better sacrifices to the maw, some new techs, tweaked a bunch of values stuff like that. I didn't get to finish a SFO ogres campaign so I can't tell you if it's better than vanilla or not, but I plan to soon.

I don't like using gameplay affecting mods. The AI isn't programmed to function properly with them and as a result they just make the player even stronger.

[Vegetable Vampire]

Originally posted by Hex:

So yeah, the race just never appealed to me so never got around to playing them until now. I'm a bit confused.

So all their good units come from the camp, which takes like 60 turns to build all the buildings for, that you can't move, that the AI can just delete by "randomly" spawning a rogue army next to it. That about right?

Most of their income relies on camp, and you have a limited number of them.

The contracts pay nothing and are always far away, often against factions you have treaties with.

All their melee units seem to be crap mid-late game, and it's much better to just recruit maneaters with pistols as the core of your army. Their ogre units look fine on stats, until you look at model counts, they just can't hang, not with that unit count and they are suuuper vulnerable to ranged damage. It's like a army of Crypt Horros, that you can't heal. Super great against gobbos, complete trash when someone hits back.

The faction seems kinda dumb, or am I missing something?

You are indeed missing "something". Camps reduce upkeep by a huge amount. You can station massive armies in their.
Camps don't take "60 turns". You can fulfill contracts that boost camp growth by +100 for 5 turns. Also there is technology and events, as well as the camp buildings themselves which boost growth.

"All their melee units seem to be crap mid-late game" Do you know what a Stonehorn is? Maybe give that a try.

"Most of their income relies on camp, and you have a limited number of them. "

No, you don't have a limited number of them. You can have as many camps as there are regions in the game. So well over 1000. There is a tech that gives you +1 camp limit when getting a camp to tier 5.

So yes, you are missing "something", i.e., everything that makes Ogres powerful.

[Beje]

Originally posted by Hex:

I don't like using gameplay affecting mods. The AI isn't programmed to function properly with them and as a result they just make the player even stronger.

You would be surprised to know then that the AI is pretty much the same in SFO haha. Well actually it seemed to me that it tends to grow bigger empires? But I need a couple of more campaigns under my belt before I can start talking facts. I'm not trying to convince you of anything btw, just wanted to debunk your fear; maybe this will help someone else I don't know.

SFO was the biggest overhaul mod for WH2 as well, so it's well known and respected by the community. They have a philosophy of respecting vanilla rules and just accentuating those elements. Like how Bretonnia lives and breathes by it's cavalry? Well that's even more true in SFO. If they add new units, it's usually just 1-2 per faction and they're very well made and again, playing into the faction's strengths rather than trying to cover weaknesses. So you won't see any ranged units for Vampire Counts or anything crazy like that.

[Hex]

Originally posted by Vegetable Vampire:

Originally posted by Hex:

So yeah, the race just never appealed to me so never got around to playing them until now. I'm a bit confused.

So all their good units come from the camp, which takes like 60 turns to build all the buildings for, that you can't move, that the AI can just delete by "randomly" spawning a rogue army next to it. That about right?

Most of their income relies on camp, and you have a limited number of them.

The contracts pay nothing and are always far away, often against factions you have treaties with.

All their melee units seem to be crap mid-late game, and it's much better to just recruit maneaters with pistols as the core of your army. Their ogre units look fine on stats, until you look at model counts, they just can't hang, not with that unit count and they are suuuper vulnerable to ranged damage. It's like a army of Crypt Horros, that you can't heal. Super great against gobbos, complete trash when someone hits back.

The faction seems kinda dumb, or am I missing something?

You are indeed missing "something". Camps reduce upkeep by a huge amount. You can station massive armies in their.
Camps don't take "60 turns". You can fulfill contracts that boost camp growth by +100 for 5 turns. Also there is technology and events, as well as the camp buildings themselves which boost growth.

"All their melee units seem to be crap mid-late game" Do you know what a Stonehorn is? Maybe give that a try.

"Most of their income relies on camp, and you have a limited number of them. "

No, you don't have a limited number of them. You can have as many camps as there are regions in the game. So well over 1000. There is a tech that gives you +1 camp limit when getting a camp to tier 5.

So yes, you are missing "something", i.e., everything that makes Ogres powerful.

Seems like some things are just not self-explataroy to some people, sigh.

Yes the camp upkeep is small, but when you take an army out it's gonna take several turns where it is vulnerable to an AI army to "conveniently" spawn and destroy it.

By 60 turns I mean from the start of the game, you don't have any tech to grow them and the contracts are pure RNG garbage. You're not gonna go sack altdorf or some stupid ♥♥♥♥ at turn 10.

That's a monster. I meant the Ogre units.

And all it takes is 200 turns to reach that tech, what a worthless thing to say. You'll reach long campaign victories before you reach that tech unless you ignore all the tech that actually make your units good.

[Hex]

Originally posted by Beje:

Originally posted by Hex:

I don't like using gameplay affecting mods. The AI isn't programmed to function properly with them and as a result they just make the player even stronger.

You would be surprised to know then that the AI is pretty much the same in SFO haha. Well actually it seemed to me that it tends to grow bigger empires? But I need a couple of more campaigns under my belt before I can start talking facts. I'm not trying to convince you of anything btw, just wanted to debunk your fear; maybe this will help someone else I don't know.

SFO was the biggest overhaul mod for WH2 as well, so it's well known and respected by the community. They have a philosophy of respecting vanilla rules and just accentuating those elements. Like how Bretonnia lives and breathes by it's cavalry? Well that's even more true in SFO. If they add new units, it's usually just 1-2 per faction and they're very well made and again, playing into the faction's strengths rather than trying to cover weaknesses. So you won't see any ranged units for Vampire Counts or anything crazy like that.

Yes I tried it in wh2 and it was pure trash because it removed pretty much all racial weaknesses without addressing the AI not taking advantage of that at all. If you want to faceroll your way through Legend, play SFO.

[Father Ribs]

Camps aren't just about development, but they're all about the food and unit buffing. Don't forget to have feasts with your armies for some good buffs every time you have enough food...and you should always have enough food.

You can still get some decent non-camp infantry, just not highest-tier.

An ogre camp should always be garrisoned, and recruiting when you can afford it; upkeep is very low, and storing armies there until a warband swings through will let you have armies "on tap"...just remember to refill garrisons. You can fill camps with anything from chaff to end game units...keep in mind though that ranged weapon units will do really bad in the ogre camps because of the high walls.

Most of their income comes from killing stuff, just like any other raider faction. The income buildings are still valuable for smoothing out the dry spells.

They're not a stand in a line faction like dwarves, but they have some really nice stuff like having a few hunters in every army which is like a small artillery unit mounted on a monster.

Just like TK or Zombie pirates, you just have to throw out all your old expectations and look at what you have, and this can be a very fun faction.

The only two things that weaken it vanilla are the difficulty in doing contracts as either too far away or requiring you to tresspass, and if you're Fat Guy in Wheelbarrow, having to navigate inside mountain passes will make Orcs and Tzeench tougher to outmaneuver.

[Teh_Diplomat]

Greasus got a fix, so while he's still eternally slow for a Singe-Entity at 35 speed, he can at least Smash sufficiently now to not feel incredibly vulnerable.

This, below should correct the values and make the contract system a better, viable means of actually wanting them lol.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2790765645&searchtext=ogre+contract

[killtastic201]

ogres are great and imo they mostly struggle from the fact that they are kinda unpopular, diplomacy wise... you have to be thoughtful about where you put down your camps because they are a long term investment, you can also build armies for your camps too, which is very flexible. you can use your camps to hold reinforcement armies that your lords can stop by to refill on, or you can have amazing camp garrisons for cheap, making it nearly impossible to take down a ogre camp. ogres have to be super aggressive. Skrags campaign gives you tons of ways to boost campaign movement speed, and thats because your supposed to be fighting 'every turn'. nearly all of your units are also very fast, high mass, and have a mechanic that helps ignore bracing, so your not weak to range at all. you can basically run right past the melee and eat up those ranged units, and if not, you have high enough mass to literally just wade through the melee to get straight to the ranged units anyway. ogres have really strong hero's too, level up the hunter hero to get access to a super powerful stone horns

[Defmonkey]

Also the heroes are very useful. Hunters on stonehorns are complete wrecking balls.

[Hex]

Guys, I wasn't asking how to play them. I took out Belegar, Aranessa and Ikit by turn 22. I was simply wondering if there was some hidden or obscure thing I was missing because the campaign mechanics felt a bit wonky.