AI is really passive in battles

[StepwisePilot]

So, this has bugged me for the entirety of the Warhammer series. The AI in battle doesn't tend to attack.

I attack them on the world map, and when I load into battle, they just stand there. Fair enough, I'm the aggressor, and they have a defensive position. However, the exact same thing happens if they attack me. The battle loads in, and they just stand there, not heading towards me. It's honestly rather annoying, as it happens for every battle. I've tried a few different difficulties, and it's the same regardless of difficulty.

So, I have to ask, why are they doing this? I remember them doing stuff in Emperor, Shogun 2, and Rome 2.

[Falaris]

I tend to observe this when they have artillery pieces with better range than yours; then they stay there to force you to approach through a hail of cannon fire.

[StepwisePilot]

Thing is, this happens even if they don't have any ranged units at all.

[Atomsk]

The AI is pathetic even on legendary.
1. They don't cast spells
2. They don't hammer and anvil with cav
3. They never have a meaningful army comp

Buff AI so it's actually difficult, I don't care how many cheats you have to give it.

[Zeek]

Originally posted by Atomsk:

The AI is pathetic even on legendary.
1. They don't cast spells
2. They don't hammer and anvil with cav
3. They never have a meaningful army comp

Buff AI so it's actually difficult, I don't care how many cheats you have to give it.

1. Yes they do. They do it all the time. The issue is they can't use directional spells very good. They can and do cast buff and debuff spells and abilities.

2. Yes they do. Play any defense oriented army and you'll see them put cav on the flanks to attack your ranged stuff when lines meet.

3. In my experience they do if they have the right buildings built. If they only have the basic tier 1 unit building yeah, they're gonna spam spearmen or whatever.

[SomeGuy1]

Originally posted by Zeek:

Originally posted by Atomsk:

The AI is pathetic even on legendary.
1. They don't cast spells
2. They don't hammer and anvil with cav
3. They never have a meaningful army comp

Buff AI so it's actually difficult, I don't care how many cheats you have to give it.

1. Yes they do. They do it all the time. The issue is they can't use directional spells very good. They can and do cast buff and debuff spells and abilities.

2. Yes they do. Play any defense oriented army and you'll see them put cav on the flanks to attack your ranged stuff when lines meet.

3. In my experience they do if they have the right buildings built. If they only have the basic tier 1 unit building yeah, they're gonna spam spearmen or whatever.

in regards to (1), there's also the issue of the AI rarely getting a high level mage hero, as all their battles against each other are autoresolve which completely wipes out one of the sides. It is also rather poor at actually assigning points to those mages

But the endgame crisis armies come with leveled heroes, and those do cast the advanced spells. It was the first time I had seen a Curse of the Bad Moon cast against me, for example.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Atomsk:

The AI is pathetic even on legendary.
1. They don't cast spells
2. They don't hammer and anvil with cav
3. They never have a meaningful army comp

Buff AI so it's actually difficult, I don't care how many cheats you have to give it.

Giving them cheats on the map is fine like lower upkeep as that = more armies
But i'd rather not give them just extra stats out of nowhere besides leadership

Instead of giving them magical stats just make them smarter both on the map and in battle, Make them build better army comps, Make them cast spells/use items, i doubt they'll ever make an ai that actually uses Calvary decently but they could definitely make the AI not just leave them in battle

Strange because now that i think about it in my experience the AI never uses directional damage spells, Its either target damage like flock of crows or its a targeted buff

seeing them cast chain lightning or something would be cool but in my hours of warhammer very rarely especially as of recently have i ever actually seen them use directional spells

[SomeGuy1]

Originally posted by Donut:

Originally posted by Atomsk:

The AI is pathetic even on legendary.
1. They don't cast spells
2. They don't hammer and anvil with cav
3. They never have a meaningful army comp

Buff AI so it's actually difficult, I don't care how many cheats you have to give it.

Giving them cheats on the map is fine like lower upkeep as that = more armies
But i'd rather not give them just extra stats out of nowhere besides leadership

Instead of giving them magical stats just make them smarter both on the map and in battle, Make them build better army comps, Make them cast spells/use items, i doubt they'll ever make an ai that actually uses Calvary decently but they could definitely make the AI not just leave them in battle

so, first of all, computers just aren't capable of true intelligent AI. not as they are now. They're not going to be making any sort of true plans, and that's what they need to have a meaningful army composition. Current computers can only react to specific inputs. When we get a computer that can play this game intelligently, it will be used to take over the world before being distributed in video games.

with the caveat that "a smarter computer" just isn't realistic or even possible to the degree that we want it at, I'd actually prefer the combat buffs to the campaign ones. Fighting a stronger opponent means I have less margin for error in my plays and have to actually outfight them. Fighting more enemies--being ground down by a bunch of otherwise easy battles--is just a slog.

[Donut]

Originally posted by SomeGuy1:

so, first of all, computers just aren't capable of true intelligent AI. not as they are now. They're not going to be making any sort of true plans, and that's what they need to have a meaningful army composition. Current computers can only react to specific inputs. When we get a computer that can play this game intelligently, it will be used to take over the world before being distributed in video games.

with the caveat that "a smarter computer" just isn't realistic or even possible to the degree that we want it at, I'd actually prefer the combat buffs to the campaign ones. Fighting a stronger opponent means I have less margin for error in my plays and have to actually outfight them. Fighting more enemies is just a slog.

For sure, I know what we all want is just a better AI in general, Personally i'd prefer ''smarter'' to just ''stronger'' and i know what we expect by having a ''smarter'' Ai isn't what we are going to ever get as i can't think of any video game at all that has any mind blowing AI (that isn't given a cheat) but I'd still prefer having an update to their strategy or even formations rather than just giving them unnatural buffs at a certain point i'd like to fight the enemy knowing I'm playing on legendary but also not having to fear that they've given something like skavenslingers some ungodly stat because CA has never been all that great at adjusting units as we have seen time and time again.

I'm not asking for the Warhammer version of ChatGPT or the Cortana of AI but rather just minor adjustments to their choices and strategy, Like take skaven for example if I'm playing on legendary i expect them to use ambushing to really max their advantage yet time and time again I'm seeing armies full of skavenslaves\Clan rats just tunnelling to get around in enemy territory which is just free exp waiting to be taken, So i'd prefer they just lower upkeep for enemy AI furthermore on legendary and ''encourage'' them to build better units as the game goes on so at least they can get better quality units as well as more armies, Because again seeing Ikit running around turn 80 legendary with just ratling guns, 2 stormvermin and just skaveslaves/clan rats is just sad same goes for alot of factions like Vampires with their 10 armies of skeletons, Or lizardman with an army full of skinks, few dinosaurs and sarus (no shields). These aren't by any means good quality armies and i expect more especially on legendary, And giving them combat stats aren't gonna fix this. They need to actively have better armies in terms of quality that scales with turn by turn because although i expect better quality i'd hate for other players playing legendary for the first time to have to fight Ironbreakers on turn 10

This was only turn 20-30 (might be more) but skrolk is getting pounded in the dirt by rando factions and is still running around with units like this, Yet his capital since his had since turn 1 still isn't producing great units even though i can clearly see he has the buildings to produce them

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2995247119

I fought it and won cause that was rather joyful seeing mobs of rats get crushed but they for sure need to be making better units as the game goes on and this applies to far too many factions, Even warhammer 3 factions like Cathay are struggling (to be fair they do have to fight Ghorst and his just gross)

[SomeGuy1]

Originally posted by Donut:

Originally posted by SomeGuy1:

so, first of all, computers just aren't capable of true intelligent AI. not as they are now. They're not going to be making any sort of true plans, and that's what they need to have a meaningful army composition. Current computers can only react to specific inputs. When we get a computer that can play this game intelligently, it will be used to take over the world before being distributed in video games.

with the caveat that "a smarter computer" just isn't realistic or even possible to the degree that we want it at, I'd actually prefer the combat buffs to the campaign ones. Fighting a stronger opponent means I have less margin for error in my plays and have to actually outfight them. Fighting more enemies is just a slog.

For sure, I know what we all want is just a better AI in general, Personally i'd prefer ''smarter'' to just ''stronger'' and i know what we expect by having a ''smarter'' Ai isn't what we are going to ever get as i can't think of any video game at all that has any mind blowing AI (that isn't given a cheat) but I'd still prefer having an update to their strategy or even formations rather than just giving them unnatural buffs at a certain point i'd like to fight the enemy knowing I'm playing on legendary but also not having to fear that they've given something like skavenslingers some ungodly stat because CA has never been all that great at adjusting units as we have seen time and time again.

I'm not asking for the Warhammer version of ChatGPT or the Cortana of AI but rather just minor adjustments to their choices and strategy, Like take skaven for example if I'm playing on legendary i expect them to use ambushing to really max their advantage yet time and time again I'm seeing armies full of skavenslaves\Clan rats just tunnelling to get around in enemy territory which is just free exp waiting to be taken, So i'd prefer they just lower upkeep for enemy AI furthermore on legendary and ''encourage'' them to build better units as the game goes on so at least they can get better quality units as well as more armies, Because again seeing Ikit running around turn 80 legendary with just ratling guns, 2 stormvermin and just skaveslaves/clan rats is just sad same goes for alot of factions like Vampires with their 10 armies of skeletons, Or lizardman with an army full of skinks, few dinosaurs and sarus (no shields). These aren't by any means good quality armies and i expect more especially on legendary, And giving them combat stats aren't gonna fix this. They need to actively have better armies in terms of quality that scales with turn by turn because although i expect better quality i'd hate for other players playing legendary for the first time to have to fight Ironbreakers on turn 10

This was only turn 20-30 (might be more) but skrolk is getting pounded in the dirt and is still running around with units like this

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2995247119

I fought it an one cause that was rather joyful but they for sure need to be making better units as the game goes on and this applies to far too many factions, Even warhammer 3 factions like Cathay are struggling (to be fair they do have to fight Ghorst and his just gross)

not gonna lie, changing upkeep costs isn't actually going to fix AI army compositions. That actually isn't the problem. When the AI has access to good units, it builds them.
The issue is with their city construction. I keep seeing the computer do stupid things like a tier 4 province capitol with the growth and income buildings, while the minors in the province have the military buildings that go up to tier 4 or 5 but can't because they're in minors. And scripts can only fix that so much--intelligent base building depends on long term planning that a computer just can't do right now.

EDIT: like, the reason Skrolk only has trash units in that image isn't because he can't afford better. He has enough base income for an army of clanrats and slingers. It's because he's getting trucked and is losing all his production buildlings, and skavenslaves are built from the main settlment building that every settlement has.

[moradim]

Weird, me too the AI ​​always puts its spells in my head. I also see her healing her troops like crazy when she's an undead AI.

As for the tactics: the AI ​​tries to circumvent me with its mobile troops and sends me its direct shock troops from the front. The times I've seen the AI ​​waiting is when they're waiting for their reinforcements, when they have artillery as or longer range than you. When they're totally overrun like when you have nineteen units tier 3 units in your army and it just has lesser tier 1 units.

As for the objects, I will say it depends on which ones for their use, she tends to use the powers of the purple objects but not those of the other colors.
Otherwise the ai uses its special heroes well when it's a skaven ai to complicate things for me with great blows of skaven plague and earthquake.
Otherwise at the end of the game, ikkit nukes me well in each battle against him.

[Donut]

Originally posted by SomeGuy1:

not gonna lie, changing upkeep costs isn't actually going to fix AI army compositions. That actually isn't the problem. When the AI has access to good units, it builds them.
The issue is with their city construction. I keep seeing the computer do stupid things like a tier 4 province capitol with the growth and income buildings, while the minors in the province have the military buildings that go up to tier 4 or 5 but can't because they're in minors. And scripts can only fix that so much--intelligent base building depends on long term planning that a computer just can't do right now.

Oh ye their city building needs to be fixed, I was playing Wurrzag once and watched one of the Dwarf towns getting attacked by another Orc faction, As they had gotten sacked the Orcs left the Dwarfs a building called ''Tower of Dung'' or something (just a building made of ♥♥♥♥) and all it had was negative stats yet dwarfs didn't actually remove it for ages

[Venom]

Originally posted by StepwisePilot:

So, this has bugged me for the entirety of the Warhammer series. The AI in battle doesn't tend to attack.

I attack them on the world map, and when I load into battle, they just stand there. Fair enough, I'm the aggressor, and they have a defensive position. However, the exact same thing happens if they attack me. The battle loads in, and they just stand there, not heading towards me. It's honestly rather annoying, as it happens for every battle. I've tried a few different difficulties, and it's the same regardless of difficulty.

So, I have to ask, why are they doing this? I remember them doing stuff in Emperor, Shogun 2, and Rome 2.

wtf you talking about A.I. Lord snips and Spell caster snips that's like most aggressive (and cheap) thing A.I. does when it has 5 or more missile unites.

But with them not coming at you normally happens if they got Rang advantage (fallow by sniping hero/lord) or artillery advantage.

[chickabumpbump]

Its the biggest gripe with the game really.

Factions all act the same on the battle map.
Greenskins wouldnt sit still and stay in a corner against a ranged army, they would bum rush it. The same with Khorne, wouldnt a khorne or norsca leader be killed or looked down upon if they backed away from some archers!?

The AI build tier 4-5 buildings in tier 3 regions, causing their armies to be an utter mess of 5 archers, 4 chariots, 9 giants etc

Just make the AI have a template set way of building a region, it may be "boring" but they clearly arent capable of building them correctly.

[Aleera]

Originally posted by StepwisePilot:

So, this has bugged me for the entirety of the Warhammer series. The AI in battle doesn't tend to attack.

I attack them on the world map, and when I load into battle, they just stand there. Fair enough, I'm the aggressor, and they have a defensive position. However, the exact same thing happens if they attack me. The battle loads in, and they just stand there, not heading towards me. It's honestly rather annoying, as it happens for every battle. I've tried a few different difficulties, and it's the same regardless of difficulty.

So, I have to ask, why are they doing this? I remember them doing stuff in Emperor, Shogun 2, and Rome 2.

So here's the thing.

If you're the defender in a battle, you win if the timer reaches 0. The Ai if it's a defender, will postpone engaging as long as it can.

If the AI is the attacker, they will form up and will advance to your starting area. They always do so in my battles as a defender. They will only not advance if they have artillery and you're not dealing direct damage. Even if their artillery is unable to fire, via moving or obstruction.

Originally posted by Atomsk:

The AI is pathetic even on legendary.
1. They don't cast spells
2. They don't hammer and anvil with cav
3. They never have a meaningful army comp

Buff AI so it's actually difficult, I don't care how many cheats you have to give it.

1. They cast spells to often and generally when not even needed.
2. Yeah, they do. They do it better and more often then 98% of the playerbase.
3. This I agree on.

[Jerroser]

The AI has always tried to hold its ground if its the defender in a battle, but I do get the feeling that in the patch that came with the CD's they increased the amount of damage it will need to take before it will abandon its position to attack the player.

Before sometimes all it really took as a few ranged hits from artillery and they would start rushing the players position. But after the patch it seems they will often sit there and take a lot more fire without really doing anything before they start moving.