The Chaos Problem

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Sorry it's kind of long guys. Please bear with me.

I was just kind of looking at some stuff in custom battles, and I came to realize that there were a few pretty neat things about the WoC, only to realize that there were also some issues with how CA implemented them.

You see, if you just hop on Warhammer 3 and go into custom battles and select the WoC, you'll find that many of the Undivided units have some Unit Customization options, which are referred to as Marks of Chaos, not just the lords and heroes.

But the major issue I ran into with this was that the marks for each god literally did almost nothing really, other than just change them into the basic other marked versions, but it's especially bad with standard chaos marauders, warriors, and chosen.

At this point, I just think that they should've done one of two things with this sort of system.

1. They should've had the marks of chaos turn the standard marauders, warriors, and chosen into their specific marked versions, as in the Khorne dual weapon and Slaanesh whips, instead of including those special variants in the roster itself.

or

2. Just have the marks of chaos only be for lords and heroes and include the special variants of the marauders, warriors, and chosen be in their own god's part of the roster.

I say this just because what we got feels kind of like a messy middle ground rather than one that works in the best overall way. Because not all middle grounds are always the best option.


And I do think that CA should just get rid of the DoC in custom and MP battles and move the WoC up to its spot and rename it to Chaos Undivided instead of it being two separate races, at least in MP anyway, though I do think they could do some stuff with the race menus for the campaigns.

And either way, I think that CA should create 4 new categories for the WoC roster, being based on each god's units of course.

And they should also get rid of all the marked/devoted LLs from the Undivided roster as well.

And I get that Chaos Undivided armies are supposed to feel like they can have stuff from all the gods rosters, but I also know that they shouldn't have unlimited access to all the stuff from each god's rosters as well.

I mean, the Undivided roster should have shared unit caps for each god's units, maybe like 8 to 10 at most, as if people want to do an all Khorne or Nurgle army, they'd be better off just picking that god's race/army.

And I don't think that they would need to literally give all of each god's rosters into the Undivided roster, but mainly just the DoC stuff that's in their extended roster, plus what they're missing, but all limited by that shared unit cap of course.

I don't think that the Undivided army roster really needs stuff like the Khorne Minotaurs, as they do already have a fair bit of monstrous infantry units in their roster

But the overall idea is to just make them feel like they're the hordes of Chaos Undivided.

[Funky Monk]

I disagree, ı don't think it's a problem at all

[SpeaksTooFast]

Have not gotten into MP so can't comment on that but think they work well in campaign. Unlocking all the best units requires sacrifices to that specific god regardless of who you are playing and while the authority system could be more impactful it still represents the internal rivalries pretty well.

Can you throw bloodletters in with an undivided caster, sure but you are going to pay for it. Pair them with a melee lord some Khorne heroes and a Tzeentch caster, all of a sudden not so bad.

[Zeek]

I don't really know what you are complaining about specifically.

Warriors of Chaos is a faction that represents some mixtures of either marked or unmarked units.

You can theme or specialize them so that your entire army is unmarked or all marked or some mixture of the markings. Table top did this as well and where this system came from.

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

1. They should've had the marks of chaos turn the standard marauders, warriors, and chosen into their specific marked versions, as in the Khorne dual weapon and Slaanesh whips, instead of including those special variants in the roster itself.

You can already do this in the form of just picking those units directly from the roster if they don't already automagically transform into the unit. They already have the required marks.

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

or

2. Just have the marks of chaos only be for lords and heroes and include the special variants of the marauders, warriors, and chosen be in their own god's part of the roster.

No. You might as well play one of the mono-god factions then. WoC allows you to mix and max marks if you want to just like DoC allows yuo to mix and match daemons.

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

I say this just because what we got feels kind of like a messy middle ground rather than one that works in the best overall way. Because not all middle grounds are always the best option.

Not really. What we have now allows for maximum flexibility and player choice.
People who want theme mono-god armies can do that and people who want mix-marked units can do that too.

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

And I do think that CA should just get rid of the DoC in custom and MP battles and move the WoC up to its spot and rename it to Chaos Undivided instead of it being two separate races, at least in MP anyway, though I do think they could do some stuff with the race menus for the campaigns.

No. Again, it goes back to table top. Daemons of Chaos and Warriors of Chaos were unique armies in the alter editions.

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

And either way, I think that CA should create 4 new categories for the WoC roster, being based on each god's units of course.

And they should also get rid of all the marked/devoted LLs from the Undivided roster as well.

Why though? You can already do this yourself.

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

And I get that Chaos Undivided armies are supposed to feel like they can have stuff from all the gods rosters, but I also know that they shouldn't have unlimited access to all the stuff from each god's rosters as well.

I mean, the Undivided roster should have shared unit caps for each god's units, maybe like 8 to 10 at most, as if people want to do an all Khorne or Nurgle army, they'd be better off just picking that god's race/army.

And I don't think that they would need to literally give all of each god's rosters into the Undivided roster, but mainly just the DoC stuff that's in their extended roster, plus what they're missing, but all limited by that shared unit cap of course.

I don't think that the Undivided army roster really needs stuff like the Khorne Minotaurs, as they do already have a fair bit of monstrous infantry units in their roster

But the overall idea is to just make them feel like they're the hordes of Chaos Undivided.

No, they should have access to most of the stuff from all the gods. It's their gimmick. Just like DoC should have access to most of the daemon stuff from all gods.

It seems like you're trying to solve problems that don't exist and apply solutions that end up being the mono-god factions we have now.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Originally posted by Funky Monk:

I disagree, I don't think it's a problem at all

Well, have you actually gone into the custom battles to see what I'm talking about?

Because if you haven't, of course it wouldn't seem like an issue.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

Originally posted by Funky Monk:

I disagree, I don't think it's a problem at all

Well, have you actually gone into the custom battles to see what I'm talking about?

Because if you haven't, of course it wouldn't seem like an issue.

It's a complete non-issue.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Originally posted by SpeaksTooFast:

Have not gotten into MP so can't comment on that but think they work well in campaign. Unlocking all the best units requires sacrifices to that specific god regardless of who you are playing and while the authority system could be more impactful it still represents the internal rivalries pretty well.

Can you throw bloodletters in with an undivided caster, sure but you are going to pay for it. Pair them with a melee lord some Khorne heroes and a Tzeentch caster, all of a sudden not so bad.

Well, that's understandable.

In the campaign it's not quite as big of an issue, but I just think that they could stand to do a little bit more interesting stuff with them in the MP.

Though I do think that they should have the chaos LLs be divided into the 5 main factions, at least in the menus anyway.

I say that because they could probably just have the DP, Archaon, Kolek, and Bel'akor all be under the Undivided faction subtext without actually changing how their factions work.

That way we'd have 2 LLs for each god's faction and 4 Undivided LLs.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Originally posted by Zeek:

I don't really know what you are complaining about specifically.

Warriors of Chaos is a faction that represents some mixtures of either marked or unmarked units.

You can theme or specialize them so that your entire army is unmarked or all marked or some mixture of the markings. Table top did this as well and where this system came from.

You can already do this in the form of just picking those units directly from the roster if they don't already automagically transform into the unit. They already have the required marks.

Well, that's not entirely true.

I mean, if you look at the Undivided chaos lord or hero, he can be turned from a sword and shield lord to being a dual axe one when you pick the mark of Khorne.

But like I pointed out, I just feel like they Undivided army should really feel like it has access to the different stuff from each god's rosters and all, but not unlimited access.

I just feel like actually having your standard marauders, warriors, and chosen be able to be turned into their specific counterparts would help make it feel like you really had all 5 choices rather than just them being the same unit with only basic differences.

Because when you look at the halberd or great weapon chaos warriors, they just have 1 or 2 choices, which is a little deflating in terms of how it should feel.

And I also think they kind of handled each god's lords and heroes in less than a great way.

Don't get me wrong, the Khorne and Tzeentch lord and hero are fine, but I think they could've made the Nurgle and Slaanesh lord and hero more unique.

Not to mention how they should've also included the aspiring champions for each god too.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

It's a complete non-issue.

No offense dude, but just because you haven't looked at it yourself doesn't mean it's not an issue.

[Funky Monk]

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

Originally posted by Funky Monk:

I disagree, I don't think it's a problem at all

Well, have you actually gone into the custom battles to see what I'm talking about?

Because if you haven't, of course it wouldn't seem like an issue.

I main WoC, the only issue ı have with them in customs is the messy unit selection because of the massive roster addition that came with CoC. What you call a ''problem'' is entirely your subjective view.

[Velber]

i was afraid this was going to be an exact copy of the last thread complaining about WoC, but im pleasantly surprised

[Zeek]

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

I just feel like actually having your standard marauders, warriors, and chosen be able to be turned into their specific counterparts would help make it feel like you really had all 5 choices rather than just them being the same unit with only basic differences.

But they do.

Standard Warriors of Chaos Marauder (Sword + Shield):
Marks of Chaos (Khorne) -> Turns them into Marauders of Khorne (Sword + Shield.
Marks of Chaos (Tzeentch) -> Turns them into Marauders of Tzeentch (Sword + Shield.
Marks of Chaos (Nurgle) -> Turns them into Marauders of Nurgle (Sword + Shield
Marks of Chaos (Slaanesh) -> Turns them into Marauders of Slaanesh (Sword + Shield).

The above applies to Chosen with Sword and Shield as well.

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

Because when you look at the halberd or great weapon chaos warriors, they just have 1 or 2 choices, which is a little deflating in terms of how it should feel.

Chaos Warriors (Great Weapon):
Mark of Chaos (Nurgle) -> Chaos Warriors of Nurgle (Great Weapon)
<Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Khorne do not have great weapon variants>

Chosen (Great Weapon):
Mark of Chaos (Nurgle) -> Chosen of Nurgle (Great Weapon)
<Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Khorne do not have great weapon variants>

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Originally posted by Funky Monk:

I main WoC, the only issue ı have with them in customs is the messy unit selection because of the massive roster addition that came with CoC. What you call a ''problem'' is entirely your subjective view.

Maybe, but you basically just agreed with me.

I do think that they could stand to at least reorganize the WoC roster a bit, but then again, I do think that they should just turn that roster into a single Chaos Undivided one as well.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Originally posted by Pseudomonarchiadaiymo:

i was afraid this was going to be an exact copy of the last thread complaining about WoC, but im pleasantly surprised

I didn't post a thread about the WoC here in quite a while.

I just think that while the mark of chaos system seems cool, it wasn't implemented as well as it could've been.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Originally posted by Zeek:

But they do.

Standard Warriors of Chaos Marauder (Sword + Shield):
Marks of Chaos (Khorne) -> Turns them into Marauders of Khorne (Sword + Shield.
Marks of Chaos (Tzeentch) -> Turns them into Marauders of Tzeentch (Sword + Shield.
Marks of Chaos (Nurgle) -> Turns them into Marauders of Nurgle (Sword + Shield
Marks of Chaos (Slaanesh) -> Turns them into Marauders of Slaanesh (Sword + Shield).

The above applies to Chosen with Sword and Shield as well.

Chaos Warriors (Great Weapon):
Mark of Chaos (Nurgle) -> Chaos Warriors of Nurgle (Great Weapon)
<Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Khorne do not have great weapon variants>

Chosen (Great Weapon):
Mark of Chaos (Nurgle) -> Chosen of Nurgle (Great Weapon)
<Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Khorne do not have great weapon variants>

Well, you kind of just pointed out exactly why it kinda sucks.

I just think it would've worked better like this

Standard Warriors of Chaos Marauder (Axe + Shield):
Marks of Chaos (Khorne) -> Turns them into Marauders of Khorne (Dual Weapons).
Marks of Chaos (Tzeentch) -> Turns them into Marauders of Tzeentch (Spears).
Marks of Chaos (Nurgle) -> Turns them into Marauders of Nurgle (Great Weapons).
Marks of Chaos (Slaanesh) -> Turns them into Marauders of Slaanesh (Whip and Shields).

That way the mark of chaos choice would actually have a bit more meaning instead of them all just being axe and shield guys with only the most basic of differences.

I just think that when you have 4 other choices which are pretty much the same, it kind of sucks a lot of the specialness out of the choices.

[Zeek]

Originally posted by chubbyninja89 (TNB):

Well, you kind of just pointed out exactly why it kinda sucks.

I just think it would've worked better like this

Standard Warriors of Chaos Marauder (Axe + Shield):
Marks of Chaos (Khorne) -> Turns them into Marauders of Khorne (Dual Weapons).
Marks of Chaos (Tzeentch) -> Turns them into Marauders of Tzeentch (Spears).
Marks of Chaos (Nurgle) -> Turns them into Marauders of Nurgle (Great Weapons).
Marks of Chaos (Slaanesh) -> Turns them into Marauders of Slaanesh (Whip and Shields).

That way the mark of chaos choice would actually have a bit more meaning instead of them all just being axe and shield guys with only the most basic of differences.

I just think that when you have 4 other choices which are pretty much the same, it kind of sucks a lot of the specialness out of the choices.

But you can already do this by just selecting those weapon variants directly like I said above.

For example if you want the slaanesh whips you just pick then directly without applying the mark because it's already done for you.