Why are streltsi so bad?

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

They have almost the exact same stats as your Tier 0 kossars. The only difference is the armor piercing attacks and some extra armor. And you have to build a Tier 3 building and pay double the upkeep for the privilege of bringing along what are effectively an armor-piercing variant of the basic kossars.

It's a shame because they are conceptually one of the coolest units and I originally thought they would be a staple of Kislev armies, but instead they're basically forgotten... and to the point that I've seen people complain that Kislev lacks armor piercing!

[dollars202]

Use em in a checkboard fashion and they become way better, as with all gun units make sure they got line of sight by zooming in before you place em.

[pascal.difolco]

Setup is key for rifle units, if you use them like kossars it don't work, you need to examine the terrain and not block them with frontline
Same thing for Rattling guns, Blunderbuss etc

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Thanks guys, but I wasn't complaining about them being gun units. I was complaining about their piss poor stats for their tier and cost in upkeep. Their shots actually don't do any more damage than the kossars, it's just armor-piercing. Against enemies with low armor, they do basically the same damage.

[Wyvern]

Their stats are perfectly in-line with other gun units except maybe dwarf thunderers which are heavily underpriced. The fact that they have AP is a massive boon the moment you have to fight units with any armor, and as gunpowder units they're actually effective vs any targets, including flyers and small single entities.

The melee stats are meh, but if you need to club down some rogue heavy cav in the backline its decent, and 70 armor vs 15 is not some small number. It's ~4x the mitigation of non-AP, which can and does mean a lot vs some opponents, especially bow units and light cav trying to disrupt.

In short, they aren't bad. People complain that Kislev lacks AP because Kislev does, in fact, have fairly few AP options, and especially lacks fire and forget AP options that do a decent job without significant micro/good target priority.

[Toby Larone]

Originally posted by Naram-Sin:

Thanks guys, but I wasn't complaining about them being gun units. I was complaining about their piss poor stats for their tier and cost in upkeep. Their shots actually don't do any more damage than the kossars, it's just armor-piercing. Against enemies with low armor, they do basically the same damage.

Streltsi shots do more damage per bullet. Its just that they have a slightly longer reload time so over 10 seconds their dps is similar. So against low armoured targets they might not do much more. But it is noticeable against anything with a reasonable amount of armour which gets common midgame.

On the other hand their 70 armour is a massive increase in durability going from something like 7% damage reduction to 52%, which can and will save them against a lot of things that mulch kossars including spells.

Yes they don't get any increase in MA, but that's the least important stat for them and everything else pretty much gets better excepter for a minimal reduction in speed.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Their stats are perfectly in-line with other gun units except maybe dwarf thunderers which are heavily underpriced. The fact that they have AP is a massive boon the moment you have to fight units with any armor, and as gunpowder units they're actually effective vs any targets, including flyers and small single entities.

The melee stats are meh, but if you need to club down some rogue heavy cav in the backline its decent, and 70 armor vs 15 is not some small number. It's ~4x the mitigation of non-AP, which can and does mean a lot vs some opponents, especially bow units and light cav trying to disrupt.

In short, they aren't bad. People complain that Kislev lacks AP because Kislev does, in fact, have fairly few AP options, and especially lacks fire and forget AP options that do a decent job without significant micro/good target priority.

Yes, but it's the same damage over time as the kossars with twice the upkeep cost, albeit armor piercing, so they'll do more damage to armored targets.

For melee, armor is alright, but it's not as good as melee defense, which the streltsi are sorely lacking. Their melee defense isn't even as high as the kossars with spears!

[Fryskar]

AP dmg is worth a lot.

No, streletsy aren't meant to engage in melee, at most they're hybrids.
Armor is the most universal defensive stat, unlike MD working against range and magic. MD also loses nearly all value if hit in the rear (the model, not the unit).

[Toby Larone]

Originally posted by Naram-Sin:

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Their stats are perfectly in-line with other gun units except maybe dwarf thunderers which are heavily underpriced. The fact that they have AP is a massive boon the moment you have to fight units with any armor, and as gunpowder units they're actually effective vs any targets, including flyers and small single entities.

The melee stats are meh, but if you need to club down some rogue heavy cav in the backline its decent, and 70 armor vs 15 is not some small number. It's ~4x the mitigation of non-AP, which can and does mean a lot vs some opponents, especially bow units and light cav trying to disrupt.

In short, they aren't bad. People complain that Kislev lacks AP because Kislev does, in fact, have fairly few AP options, and especially lacks fire and forget AP options that do a decent job without significant micro/good target priority.

Yes, but it's the same damage over time as the kossars with twice the upkeep cost, albeit armor piercing, so they'll do more damage to armored targets.

For melee, armor is alright, but it's not as good as melee defense, which the streltsi are sorely lacking. Their melee defense isn't even as high as the kossars with spears!

Its not the same damage. Its similar damage over 10 seconds but with less ammo used meaning the streltsi will last longer and do overall more damage.

Armoured troops like the ones fielded by pretty much all factions except chaos daemons by the midgame?

Armour doesn't just work in melee. Other archers shooting at the streltsi (much more common scenario) becomes more survivable with the armour than without it.

HE spearmen have more MD than their swordmaster breatheren. Even Phoenix Guard only have 2 MD more than the elven spreas. Weapons come with their advantages and disadvantages to a large part. GW units tend to trade MD for MA.

[jonoliveira12]

They are not. Streltsy have good damage values, and are an excellent gunner, that also does better than most in melee.

[pascal.difolco]

Originally posted by Naram-Sin:

Thanks guys, but I wasn't complaining about them being gun units. I was complaining about their piss poor stats for their tier and cost in upkeep. Their shots actually don't do any more damage than the kossars, it's just armor-piercing. Against enemies with low armor, they do basically the same damage.

But against armored targets Kossars are toast
And rifles have much better bullet speed and accuracy than arrows (duh), so against Lords/Heroes/SEM perform waaaay better

[Scar Glamour]

It's not entirely fair to compare Streltsi with Kossars, because one unit is primarily ranged (more ammo, longer range) and the other one is primarily melee (better attack and defense). It is best to think of Streltsi as Empire Handgunners with way better holding potential reducing the need for a beefy frontline.

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by Scar Glamour:

It's not entirely fair to compare Streltsi with Kossars, because one unit is primarily ranged (more ammo, longer range) and the other one is primarily melee (better attack and defense). It is best to think of Streltsi as Empire Handgunners with way better holding potential reducing the need for a beefy frontline.

Kossars are ranged favouring hybrids.
Armored kossars are melee favouring hybrids.

While streletsi suvive melee better than handgunners, you want neither of them engaged in melee.

[Hieronymous]

Every faction has lore-accurate inefficiencies.

A chaos army has to go to some trouble to field things other than heavy infantry.

Wood elves have to deal with holding an infantry line.

Dawi have to deal with very limited magic options (which they accomplish perfectly BTW and also look good while doing it, but still)

So, if the Ruskies struggle to field high tech units that aren't even that good, it's on brand, thematic and fun.

[SomeGuy1]

Originally posted by Scar Glamour:

It's not entirely fair to compare Streltsi with Kossars, because one unit is primarily ranged (more ammo, longer range) and the other one is primarily melee (better attack and defense). It is best to think of Streltsi as Empire Handgunners with way better holding potential reducing the need for a beefy frontline.

Streltsi have the same MAtk and two higher MDef than Kossars.
you're thinking of Armored Kossars, which are a different unit.

[Liverpaul]

Streltsi get some good upgrades fom Technology. This makes them really useful.