Whats up with the power of Tzar Guard??

[the_alpha_dude]

Guard with great weapons...why are they so powerful? I've been testing them out 4v4 vs other infantry units, and they are beating pretty much everything, even dwarvern hammerers and high elf sword masters!

[Aleera]

Unbreakable.

By our blood makes testing almost always in favor of Kislev, if unit's are similiar statewise, the unbreakable means they will win out.

[Imposter]

I didnt have much of a problem during my Azhag campaign. Tzar might seem to be overperforming.... In which in a small way: They are, because of their nigh unbreakable ability.

But they are suppose to be elite. But base Black Orcs dont have much of a problem against them, or even Big'Uns, if ranked enough with scrap.

They need it.

[jonoliveira12]

They are very powerful, because they are high tier Infantry, which means that unless they were extreme specialists, they have to be powerful, in order to justify the tier scalling.

[Falaris]

They are anti-infantry, and get +14 melee attack and damage against other infantry. VERY few great weapon units do that, as great weapons are usually anti-large, if anything.
(Example: Chaos Warriors of Khorne w. Halberd).

That makes them strong against infantry. Also, 'by our blood' helps, too, of course.

Testing them against other great weapon troops, I think only Chosen of Nurgle would have a good chance, they're generalist great weapons but has an amazing stat line. Although.. with that said, hammerers shouldn't be pushovers, they should win at least some of the time.

https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh3_main_ksl_inf_tzar_guard_1%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D779302925052959166&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh3_main_kho_inf_chaos_warriors_1%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D779302925052959166&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh3_dlc20_chs_inf_chosen_mnur_greatweapons%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D779302925052959166&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_dwf_inf_hammerers%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D779302925052959166

[SomeGuy1]

Originally posted by Falaris:

They are anti-infantry, and get +14 melee attack and damage against other infantry. VERY few great weapon units do that, as great weapons are usually anti-large, if anything.
(Example: Chaos Warriors of Khorne w. Halberd).

That makes them strong against infantry. Also, 'by our blood' helps, too, of course.

Testing them against other great weapon troops, I think only Chosen of Nurgle would have a good chance, they're generalist great weapons but has an amazing stat line. Although.. with that said, hammerers shouldn't be pushovers, they should win at least some of the time.

https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh3_main_ksl_inf_tzar_guard_1%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D779302925052959166&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh3_main_kho_inf_chaos_warriors_1%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D779302925052959166&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh3_dlc20_chs_inf_chosen_mnur_greatweapons%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D779302925052959166&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_dwf_inf_hammerers%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D779302925052959166

well, most "Greatsword" units are anti infantry. Empire Greatswords, Foot Squires, Swordmasters of Hoeth, Har Ganeth Executioners, Bloodletters, Tsar Guard (great weapons)... all tagged as "greatsword infantry" and all armor piercing anti infantry.
While "halberds" (and eshin triads' guanados, but not wildwood rangers' glaives for some reason... even though Ice Guards' glaives ARE BvL) are almost always armor piercing anti large (and spears being anti large but not armor piercing).
And other types of "great weapons" (hammers, axes) are typically armor piercing with no specialization. Armored Kossars (great weapons) are flagged as "pistol and greatmace", and have AP but no BvI or BvL.

[Falaris]

Originally posted by SomeGuy1:

well, most "Greatsword" units are anti infantry. Empire Greatswords, Foot Squires, Swordmasters of Hoeth, Har Ganeth Executioners, Bloodletters, Tsar Guard (great weapons)... all tagged as "greatsword infantry"

Yeah, I read the OP's comment about 'guard with greatweapon', and ran with that without double checking what the tsar guard actually used.

[Wyvern]

I'm pretty sure they get minced by swordmasters, not sure about hammerers but I would check that stuff like formation width is equivalent and that the difficulty being tested on is normal, since other difficulties can swing melee balance wildly.

[SomeGuy1]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

I'm pretty sure they get minced by swordmasters, not sure about hammerers but I would check that stuff like formation width is equivalent and that the difficulty being tested on is normal, since other difficulties can swing melee balance wildly.

so, Swordmasters have higher Matk and substantially higher MDef, with slightly lower hp and damage per swing. if the differences in hp and damage are enough to make the swordmasters need an extra hit to kill each tsar guard model, I could see something happening there. but it's still in favor of the swordmasters, I think.

[MulticornRB]

Well, power is kind of relative. The real question is how this translate a real battle where they not fight a good match up or get shot, spell nuked and monster charged on the way into melee or the opponent even avoids fighting them altogether.

[Atomsk]

Much rather use kossars and Ice Guard than Tzar Guard.

Incredibly boring unit to use and hella slow.