Is Tzeentch even evil?

[Goose]

All his factions do is mess with timelines & change things. the twisted twin was abused & bullied so tzeentch let him take power over his entire village that abused him

[Sigma]

Messaggio originale di jonoliveira12:

Also yes, I am evil, and find this aspirational:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLWaj3BPtOc&ab_channel=Tarriff

nice

[Leslian Lexter]

Messaggio originale di Sigma:

Messaggio originale di jonoliveira12:

And that is not even the issue.
Because they are sentient, and knowledgeable of the whole breadth of mortal reasoning, they could choose not to be Pure Evil, but they ACTIVELY choose to be so, and literally created a feedback loop that empowers them the more Evil there is, by creating Evil.

The Chaos Gods CHOSE Evil!
As soon as one has sentience and choice, one cannot be excused.

they chose evil because thats literally the nature that spawned them.. all the gods are really a product of mortal beings
infact, I think at one point Balthasar uses this exact thing in a novel and erects a wall of faith
it wouldnt make much sense if Khaine, the god of murder to decide they dont like murder anymore. so no.. they arnt as sentient as you presume
its also why they probably use mortals (or previous mortals) to lead armies.
also why isha, Kurnous, and various other elven gods act through mortals.
they dont have things like free will, as mortals do.

Your logic is paradoxal.

They are born of evil. Evil spawned them. They are the embodiment of evil. You are trying to excuse pure evil, from being evil, due to a lack of free will. But it doesnt matter, because they are made of pure evil. They are the avatars of evil. They do not posses evil as a property - They ARE evil. Humans can be evil, and if they choose to be evil, they are evil. But the chaos gods are made of pure evil. They are the matter of evil.

Thats what i mean, when i say they are pure evil. They are the embodiment of evil. I am not judging them to be evil. I am saying they are made of evil.

Your argument is like saying water isnt water, because water didnt choose to be water. It doesnt matter. Water is made of water. It IS water. In the same way, the chaos gods ARE evil.

[FizzyElf]

This thread reminds me of the bendy argument: "Call me the seed of evil, but does that mean if I am conceived with in your mind.". Which works great for a villain set up like that so that you are able to question the idea of if it's truly evil or merely a thought, a contrived belief. The only problem is that the chaos gods aren't set up that way, they are emotion given life and whose agency is directed by an emotional aspect that birthed them, ie slannesh being born in 40k from the excessively indulgent emotions of the Eldar. Water cannot choose to be water but the atoms that make up water still exist and by extension the water will be perceived by people, animals etc and continue to be until something changes it (which is why water isn't a good substitute here considering changing it would mean be bringing in a character like a marvel/DC author stand-in god to overwrite what emotions can effect and create in the warhammer universe for example, which will never happen.).

The gods are not good, they are not evil and they most certainly are not neutral, they are all of these things and more all at the same time. Their cultists can be evil, it's an option for them and they can even shift the blame for their actions onto their patron, not like they would even bat an eye over such and event, but the gods themselves don't get the same privilege that mortals enjoy.

[Sigma]

Messaggio originale di Leslian Lexter:

Messaggio originale di Sigma:

they chose evil because thats literally the nature that spawned them.. all the gods are really a product of mortal beings
infact, I think at one point Balthasar uses this exact thing in a novel and erects a wall of faith
it wouldnt make much sense if Khaine, the god of murder to decide they dont like murder anymore. so no.. they arnt as sentient as you presume
its also why they probably use mortals (or previous mortals) to lead armies.
also why isha, Kurnous, and various other elven gods act through mortals.
they dont have things like free will, as mortals do.

Your logic is paradoxal.

They are born of evil. Evil spawned them. They are the embodiment of evil. You are trying to excuse pure evil, from being evil, due to a lack of free will. But it doesnt matter, because they are made of pure evil. They are the avatars of evil. They do not posses evil as a property - They ARE evil. Humans can be evil, and if they choose to be evil, they are evil. But the chaos gods are made of pure evil. They are the matter of evil.

Thats what i mean, when i say they are pure evil. They are the embodiment of evil. I am not judging them to be evil. I am saying they are made of evil.

Your argument is like saying water isnt water, because water didnt choose to be water. It doesnt matter. Water is made of water. It IS water. In the same way, the chaos gods ARE evil.

not really paradoxical... except for maybe how they wrote it.
water didnt become water because of belief, faith, action and emotions of living things.. water is simply water whether you want to believe it or not, thats not how the gods in warhammer work
everything in chaos/warp is given form and power via the mortal world
the four chaos gods are generally the strongest because those prevailing faiths and emotions, beliefs and actions.
I mean unless they rewrote how they work. I doubt that tho because of how RoC ended.
the gods are simply manifestations of idea really.. thats also why I told someone else.. while they can make decisions to a degree they dont really have free will.. they cant just hang up their hat and be "good" or retire for the very reason they exist depends on it since thats literally how they exist.

this is how I always understood how the gods work in warhammer and how ive had people explain it and what I read, if I I am wrong then idk throw me some book links I guess idk lol

I guess if you are saying they always existed because they are tied to concepts of evil... then okay.. but that doesnt mean what I said is paradoxical, its why I said they are a manifestion inherent to that concept and will only ever be, hence why they dont choose evil, its "evil" that manifested them.. but again.. evil is kinda subjective. despite it being subjective wont change what that slannesh does or nurgle does or is.
there is alot of people in the warhammer world that dont think they are evil.
further more there are people like nagash, that does evil things in response to the chaos gods. so I dont think it is as black and white.
the greenskins are also.. kinda evil, yet have almost nothing to do with the chaos gods and they virtually cant be corrupted, since I guess they are old ones space fungus. im sure khorne enjoys them tho.
so what about that? warhammer is pretty complex for better or worse.
same really goes for the lizardmen who can be kinda huge ♥♥♥♥♥ at times, also the nehekarians who literally get there power from entirely different set of gods. list goes on.

[Sigma]

Messaggio originale di FizzyElf:

This thread reminds me of the bendy argument: "Call me the seed of evil, but does that mean if I am conceived with in your mind.". Which works great for a villain set up like that so that you are able to question the idea of if it's truly evil or merely a thought, a contrived belief. The only problem is that the chaos gods aren't set up that way, they are emotion given life and whose agency is directed by an emotional aspect that birthed them, ie slannesh being born in 40k from the excessively indulgent emotions of the Eldar. Water cannot choose to be water but the atoms that make up water still exist and by extension the water will be perceived by people, animals etc and continue to be until something changes it (which is why water isn't a good substitute here considering changing it would mean be bringing in a character like a marvel/DC author stand-in god to overwrite what emotions can effect and create in the warhammer universe for example, which will never happen.).

The gods are not good, they are not evil and they most certainly are not neutral, they are all of these things and more all at the same time. Their cultists can be evil, it's an option for them and they can even shift the blame for their actions onto their patron, not like they would even bat an eye over such and event, but the gods themselves don't get the same privilege that mortals enjoy.

right, thats how I understand it, despite maybe my explanations being off enough people arnt getting it
really mortals give form whether intentionally or unintentionally to these "gods" the gods need mortals, and mortals will benefit from said gods assuming there beliefs align
usually the chaos gods are tied to something either inevitable or desirable and they are powerful.. gods need more people so.. boom.. but like you said the gods only do what is in their conceptual nature and will only act within that. its mortals that have the free will to use it for evil and some gods, namely the chaos gods.. people are probably not gonna like devotees of lol..
you let khaine into the world like tyrion did you best bet its gonna be a ♥♥♥♥ show.. (ik he is an elven god, just an example)
so the real evil is the mortals actions not the god itself. like I keep saying the gods are simply the manifestation of the concept and power.. its mortals actions that are evil.

[Kapika96]

No. Tzeentch is the hero!

They even have an army of sexy bird dudes! Doesn't get much better than that!

[jonoliveira12]

Messaggio originale di Kapika96:

No. Tzeentch is the hero!

They even have an army of sexy bird dudes! Doesn't get much better than that!

Sexy?

I would say to turn to Sigmar, but if you are seeing sexy in the blue parakeets, you are already beyond redemption!

[Conway Bieber]

Tzeentch is so insidiously evil that he even has you questioning his nature in real life. Tzeentch is the kind of guy to give a planet unlimited energy just to watch themselves become lazy sloth people like Wall.E. and then devoured by tyranids when they can't defend themselves. *all as planned* TM. Even seemingly Kind things Tzeentch does usually screw you over in the long run.

[jonoliveira12]

Messaggio originale di Joe Rogan:

Tzeentch is so insidiously evil that he even has you questioning his nature in real life. Tzeentch is the kind of guy to give a planet unlimited energy just to watch themselves become lazy sloth people like Wall.E. and then devoured by tyranids when they can't defend themselves. *all as planned* TM. Even seemingly Kind things Tzeentch does usually screw you over in the long run.

That is because he is just Evil.

[Isaac]

This whole topic once was way more interesting. In the beginning of warhammer, the Chaos gods embodied more emotions than just the evil ones we know today. Back then, khorne teached his followers to have mercy with the weak and he would punish you if you attacked people who couldn't fight back.
But this wasn't grimdank enought for some fat neckbeards, so they changed it and now the gods are just pure evil with no good traits.
Boring

[Isaac]

Messaggio originale di jonoliveira12:

Messaggio originale di Kapika96:

No. Tzeentch is the hero!

They even have an army of sexy bird dudes! Doesn't get much better than that!

Sexy?

I would say to turn to Sigmar, but if you are seeing sexy in the blue parakeets, you are already beyond redemption!

Pfffff. There is worse things to find sexy in warhammer. Remember, according to some warhammer novels, there are female bloodletters

[jonoliveira12]

Messaggio originale di Isaac:

Messaggio originale di jonoliveira12:

Sexy?

I would say to turn to Sigmar, but if you are seeing sexy in the blue parakeets, you are already beyond redemption!

Pfffff. There is worse things to find sexy in warhammer. Remember, according to some warhammer novels, there are female bloodletters

I am ok with female bloodletters, Khorne is not sexist. Khorne loves women so much, he married one, and refuses to let her die.
It does not mean they are sexy, though, or expected to be.

[FizzyElf]

Messaggio originale di jonoliveira12:

Messaggio originale di Isaac:

Pfffff. There is worse things to find sexy in warhammer. Remember, according to some warhammer novels, there are female bloodletters

I am ok with female bloodletters, Khorne is not sexist. Khorne loves women so much, he married one, and refuses to let her die.
It does not mean they are sexy, though, or expected to be.

Wait did khorne get jealous of nurgle and find a second Isha or something?

Messaggio originale di Isaac:

Messaggio originale di jonoliveira12:

Sexy?

I would say to turn to Sigmar, but if you are seeing sexy in the blue parakeets, you are already beyond redemption!

Pfffff. There is worse things to find sexy in warhammer. Remember, according to some warhammer novels, there are female bloodletters

I wonder if you could tell them apart given that the males don't have any genitalia and unlike slannesh's demon's, Khorne's don't weaponize sex at least to my knowledge.

Messaggio originale di Kapika96:

No. Tzeentch is the hero!

They even have an army of sexy bird dudes! Doesn't get much better than that!

What? aside from the greater daemons there aren't a lot of bird dudes in Tzeentch's army, the exalted flamers and their variants I believe are the only other avian units.

[jonoliveira12]

Messaggio originale di FizzyElf:

Messaggio originale di jonoliveira12:

I am ok with female bloodletters, Khorne is not sexist. Khorne loves women so much, he married one, and refuses to let her die.
It does not mean they are sexy, though, or expected to be.

Wait did khorne get jealous of nurgle and find a second Isha or something?

Messaggio originale di Isaac:

Pfffff. There is worse things to find sexy in warhammer. Remember, according to some warhammer novels, there are female bloodletters

I wonder if you could tell them apart given that the males don't have any genitalia and unlike slannesh's demon's, Khorne's don't weaponize sex at least to my knowledge.

Messaggio originale di Kapika96:

No. Tzeentch is the hero!

They even have an army of sexy bird dudes! Doesn't get much better than that!

What? aside from the greater daemons there aren't a lot of bird dudes in Tzeentch's army, the exalted flamers and their variants I believe are the only other avian units.

Isha is not with Nurgle in Fantasy, and in 40K she is an unwilling captive, which makes Nurgle an abusive sex pest.

Khorne is the only Chaos God in a legitimate relationship, and only in Fantasy.

[FizzyElf]

Messaggio originale di jonoliveira12:

Messaggio originale di FizzyElf:

Wait did khorne get jealous of nurgle and find a second Isha or something?




I wonder if you could tell them apart given that the males don't have any genitalia and unlike slannesh's demon's, Khorne's don't weaponize sex at least to my knowledge.




What? aside from the greater daemons there aren't a lot of bird dudes in Tzeentch's army, the exalted flamers and their variants I believe are the only other avian units.

Isha is not with Nurgle in Fantasy, and in 40K she is an unwilling captive, which makes Nurgle an abusive sex pest.

Khorne is the only Chaos God in a legitimate relationship, and only in Fantasy.

So wait, Khorne didn't just kidnap a god and lock them up in the throne room but is actually dating someone? When the hell did that happen?