Ask me lore questions

[Reverend Belial]

Some few veterans may recall my thread in the very first game's forum, which was sadly recently closed after seven years of operation RIP May 17th 2017 - June 37 2023, it is time to re-open in this newer, more bustling locale.

This is exactly what it says on the tin. Any lore question you may have about Warhammer Fantasy - big or small, obvious or obscure - ask away and I will do my best to answer it (even the not-so-serious ones). Anybody is welcome here, veterans and newcomers alike, so long as they come in good faith.

FAQ:
Q: Is 40k and Fantasy the same universe?
A: No.

Q: What is the End Times and why did it happen?
A: The End Times is the destruction of the Warhammer Fantasy setting, both in and out of universe. Chaos won the final confrontation and destroyed the world, beginning a new cycle and franchise. Out-of-universe this was done because Fantasy's models were costing Games Workshop more money than they were making them so they decided to scrap the setting entirely and reboot it as an 80's power metal album cover.

Disclaimers/Guidelines (I know that we're not supposed to back-seat moderate but sometimes it's necessary to keep things organized):
1. The most important thing; I AM NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. Do not take what I say as the gospel truth, I can forget and I can misread things just like everybody else. My knowledge of the Elves is also pretty shady. There are several regulars around who tend to fill in blanks or correct me if I'm wrong though, so you'll probably get your answer regardless.

2. Repeat questions are ok, so long as the question hasn't been asked on the same page or the one before it. I don't expect anybody to sift through 3000+ posts, but a light skim of the previous page won't kill anybody.

3. GW is extremely vague on many things, so sometimes there just simply isn't an answer to your question. They're also prone to retcons so sometimes what you think is the answer is no longer valid.

4. Try to avoid arguments. I know that sometimes they're unavoidable, but please don't deliberately antagonize anybody. Pretty basic.

5. No continuing the "Skaven don't exist" meme outside the context of the lore. I know it's fun sometimes, but it's old, tired, and just wants to rest. Plus it grates on other people.

[aerpyljov]

1. Are there wars between Lizardmen?
2. If yes, are there wars, where BOTH warring armies are led by Slanns? I mean are there conflicts between Slanns?
3. If answers are “yes” and “no”, are there wars, where ONE of the warring armies is led by a Slann? I mean can Skinks and the Saurus fight against a Slann from a different city?

[Ashardalon]

Oprindeligt skrevet af aerpyljov:

Is there migration between High, Dark and Wood Elves?
I mean a Druchii emigrating to Ulthuan or an Asur to Athel Loren, and so on. If not, why not?
Of course, the Druchii and the Asur have millennia-long hatred to each other, so an immigrant could be rejected as a possible spy. But none of them have such a conflict with the Asrai.

generally speaking no
in very rare occasions a naive rash young high elf tries to join the dark elves
those dont last long as their naivety is easily abused by the real dark elves
and when a wych sees a free sacrifice she wont resist
dark elves returning to high elves is technically possible, but the high elves are paranoid (understandable since it has been abused in the past) and the tests are not fun
and you basically have to bring some critical info on delf movements to eve get the chance to do the test
wood elves... its more up to the forest then the elves and the forest is hard to predict
but in very very rare occasions it has happened
dark elves find it easier to join the shades
so its technically possible, but it doesnt really happen

[cb4n28]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Reverend Belial:

Oprindeligt skrevet af aerpyljov:

Very interesting! Who is this person?

Alarielle the Everqueen

Oprindeligt skrevet af aerpyljov:

1. Are there Chaos worshippers, who repudiated Chaos?
The question is about both scenarios:
• Order-chaos-order like Darth Vader (for example an Empire dweller who went to Chaos as Archaon did, but in some time after decided that he had been wrong and went to Order back).
• Chaos-order (for example a Norsca dweller who decided to refuse Chaos Gods).

2. Can Chaos mutations be reverted, or is it one way road?
The question is about any scenario:
• Whether you got the mutations willingly through Chaos worshipping or unwillingly through exposure to warpstone, Chaos artifacts and so on.
• Whether you willingly repudiated Chaos or someone else forcefully purified your body from Chaos gifts.

There is lore established in the story Ignorant Armies by Jack Yeovil under the psuedonym Kim Newman from very early on in the Black Library where a man was apparently cured of his Chaos mutation. It's pretty old lore so rigid canon folks wouldn't consider it canon anymore, but it features into the Vampire Genevieve novels, parts of which most consider to be canon.

The story deals with Johann von Mecklenburg accompanied by the mercenary Vukotich journeying into the Chaos Wastes in search of a family member who had been kidnapped by the warband of an infamous Chaos Warrior years before. When von Mecklenburg finds his brother Wolf, he discovers that he has mutated and become a Chaos champion in his own right. At the end of the story, Wolf is apparently miraculously cured by the sacrifice of Vukotich and returned to the 13 year old boy he was when he was first kidnapped.

The von Mecklenburg brothers return in the novel Beasts in Velvet, which deals with the hunt for a prolific serial killer in Altdorf. Think Warhammer Jack the Ripper. Johann is concerned that Wolf may not be cured after all and may be the serial killer. By the end, it's a little vague whether or not Wolf might still have some type of Chaos taint or if he just has psychological problems from the trauma of his experiences. It definitely feels like the type of thing Yeovil wanted to follow up on in a future story but, so far as I am aware, he never got the chance.

There are many inconsistencies that both Ignorant Armies and Beasts in Velvet have with more modern versions of the lore but some of the characters and events are referenced elsewhere in both supplements and other parts of the Black Library.

So your mileage my vary about whether you consider Ignorant Armies and Wolf von Mecklenburgs apparently miraculous transformation from mutated Chaos Warrior back to having a tentative claim on his humanity to be canon.

It's in the lore though; in fact it was prominent enough that Ignorant Armies was the title of one of the earliest anthologies of Warhammer fiction; and worth noting in the context of the question.

It's also a pretty good read, canon or not, the atmosphere of Johann and Vukotich's journey into the Chaos Wastes reminds me a bit of the earlier sections of Stephen King's Dark Tower series although still distinctly Warhammer. Beasts in Velvet is also a fun read although the Dirty Harry references are a bit on the nose.

[Reverend Belial]

Oprindeligt skrevet af ~ Fabulous ~:

Is Araby still canon? why they are treated like they not exist lol

They're canon, but they're canonically pretty irrelevant. Their power was permanently broken during the Crusades, and the only external expeditions they do are unofficial corsair raids. Mostly they just kinda mind their own business.

Oprindeligt skrevet af aerpyljov:

Is there migration between High, Dark and Wood Elves?
I mean a Druchii emigrating to Ulthuan or an Asur to Athel Loren, and so on. If not, why not?
Of course, the Druchii and the Asur have millennia-long hatred to each other, so an immigrant could be rejected as a possible spy. But none of them have such a conflict with the Asrai.

It does happen, but it's relatively rare. Both parties actually dislike the Asrai though, for refusing to take part in the conflict.

Oprindeligt skrevet af aerpyljov:

1. Are there wars between Lizardmen?
2. If yes, are there wars, where BOTH warring armies are led by Slanns? I mean are there conflicts between Slanns?
3. If answers are “yes” and “no”, are there wars, where ONE of the warring armies is led by a Slann? I mean can Skinks and the Saurus fight against a Slann from a different city?

Yes, they apparently war sometimes over interpretations of the Great Plan. I imagine that their battles are fairly ritualized, but I couldn't say for sure.

Both sides are always led by Slann though, the only city that isn't ruled by them is in the Southlands and basically doesn't interact with Lustria.

Oprindeligt skrevet af cb4n28:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Reverend Belial:

Alarielle the Everqueen

Oprindeligt skrevet af aerpyljov:

1. Are there Chaos worshippers, who repudiated Chaos?
The question is about both scenarios:
• Order-chaos-order like Darth Vader (for example an Empire dweller who went to Chaos as Archaon did, but in some time after decided that he had been wrong and went to Order back).
• Chaos-order (for example a Norsca dweller who decided to refuse Chaos Gods).

2. Can Chaos mutations be reverted, or is it one way road?
The question is about any scenario:
• Whether you got the mutations willingly through Chaos worshipping or unwillingly through exposure to warpstone, Chaos artifacts and so on.
• Whether you willingly repudiated Chaos or someone else forcefully purified your body from Chaos gifts.

There is lore established in the story Ignorant Armies by Jack Yeovil under the psuedonym Kim Newman from very early on in the Black Library where a man was apparently cured of his Chaos mutation. It's pretty old lore so rigid canon folks wouldn't consider it canon anymore, but it features into the Vampire Genevieve novels, parts of which most consider to be canon.

The story deals with Johann von Mecklenburg accompanied by the mercenary Vukotich journeying into the Chaos Wastes in search of a family member who had been kidnapped by the warband of an infamous Chaos Warrior years before. When von Mecklenburg finds his brother Wolf, he discovers that he has mutated and become a Chaos champion in his own right. At the end of the story, Wolf is apparently miraculously cured by the sacrifice of Vukotich and returned to the 13 year old boy he was when he was first kidnapped.

The von Mecklenburg brothers return in the novel Beasts in Velvet, which deals with the hunt for a prolific serial killer in Altdorf. Think Warhammer Jack the Ripper. Johann is concerned that Wolf may not be cured after all and may be the serial killer. By the end, it's a little vague whether or not Wolf might still have some type of Chaos taint or if he just has psychological problems from the trauma of his experiences. It definitely feels like the type of thing Yeovil wanted to follow up on in a future story but, so far as I am aware, he never got the chance.

There are many inconsistencies that both Ignorant Armies and Beasts in Velvet have with more modern versions of the lore but some of the characters and events are referenced elsewhere in both supplements and other parts of the Black Library.

So your mileage my vary about whether you consider Ignorant Armies and Wolf von Mecklenburgs apparently miraculous transformation from mutated Chaos Warrior back to having a tentative claim on his humanity to be canon.

It's in the lore though; in fact it was prominent enough that Ignorant Armies was the title of one of the earliest anthologies of Warhammer fiction; and worth noting in the context of the question.

It's also a pretty good read, canon or not, the atmosphere of Johann and Vukotich's journey into the Chaos Wastes reminds me a bit of the earlier sections of Stephen King's Dark Tower series although still distinctly Warhammer. Beasts in Velvet is also a fun read although the Dirty Harry references are a bit on the nose.

Genevieve is only considered "canon" because it's incredibly popular, the actual content of the novels is based on INCREDIBLY outdated lore and basically nothing within it should be taken as reliable information. Mutations being uncurable is stated explicitly in several other sources, not least of which the 2nd ed RPG on several occasions.

[Defmonkey]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Reverend Belial:

Oprindeligt skrevet af aerpyljov:

1. Are there wars between Lizardmen?
2. If yes, are there wars, where BOTH warring armies are led by Slanns? I mean are there conflicts between Slanns?
3. If answers are “yes” and “no”, are there wars, where ONE of the warring armies is led by a Slann? I mean can Skinks and the Saurus fight against a Slann from a different city?

Yes, they apparently war sometimes over interpretations of the Great Plan. I imagine that their battles are fairly ritualized, but I couldn't say for sure.

Both sides are always led by Slann though, the only city that isn't ruled by them is in the Southlands and basically doesn't interact with Lustria.

Its been a while since i have got up to speed with Lizardmen lore, but there are Slann ruling in Zlatlan the city in the southlands... they are out of touch from lustria though.

[Reverend Belial]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Defmonkey:

Its been a while since i have got up to speed with Lizardmen lore, but there are Slann ruling in Zlatlan the city in the southlands... they are out of touch from lustria though.

No, there are not. The Lizardmen of the Southlands are defined by the fact that they no longer have Slann so the Skinks had to step up.

[Defmonkey]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Reverend Belial:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Defmonkey:

Its been a while since i have got up to speed with Lizardmen lore, but there are Slann ruling in Zlatlan the city in the southlands... they are out of touch from lustria though.

No, there are not. The Lizardmen of the Southlands are defined by the fact that they no longer have Slann so the Skinks had to step up.

Has this been retro'd out? I recall there being several named Slann (From rule books etc) from the southlands but would need to look in a bit further to it.

[aerpyljov]

I've googled Xuaxamul to be Mage-Lord of Zlatlan, but I'm not sure what is the actual source of this info.

[Ashardalon]

if there where slann then distance wouldnt matter since their warp communication could easily reach other planets if there was anyone to talk to
so being a bit to the south really wouldnt matter

[cb4n28]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Reverend Belial:

Oprindeligt skrevet af cb4n28:

It's also a pretty good read, canon or not, the atmosphere of Johann and Vukotich's journey into the Chaos Wastes reminds me a bit of the earlier sections of Stephen King's Dark Tower series although still distinctly Warhammer. Beasts in Velvet is also a fun read although the Dirty Harry references are a bit on the nose.

Genevieve is only considered "canon" because it's incredibly popular, the actual content of the novels is based on INCREDIBLY outdated lore and basically nothing within it should be taken as reliable information. Mutations being uncurable is stated explicitly in several other sources, not least of which the 2nd ed RPG on several occasions.

Yes, as I mentioned, its old lore and folks who are uncomfortable with the flexible canon concept generally don't consider it to be canon anymore.

Even if there is any truth to that story though, one thing I think we can agree on is that answer to the question of "can mutation be cured?" is essentially no. Whatever may or may not have happened to Wolf von Mecklenburg may not have been permanent (as the plot thread was never resolved) and is treated as basically an unheard of miracle, basically some type of mysterious divine intervention, anyways. Putting on my speculative theory hat for a moment, I would assume that there's a good chance that if Jack Yeovil had continued the story, Wolf wasn't really cured. The whole thing, from Wolf's kidnapping and transformation to his miraculous "cure," could have been a plot to get an unwitting servant of Chaos close to the Emperor. We'll never know whether Yeovil had any plans for the character, but that situation sure seems like the kind of scheme Genevieve and Detlef or Rosanna and Harald would have ended up unraveling and Wolf was definitely a dangling plot thread when Yeovil stopped writing for Warhammer.

Still, its part of the lore so worth mentioning in response to the question as its the closest thing I am aware of to anyone ever being redeemed and cured of Chaos mutation, questionable canonicty aside.

[Defmonkey]

Oprindeligt skrevet af aerpyljov:

I've googled Xuaxamul to be Mage-Lord of Zlatlan, but I'm not sure what is the actual source of this info.

Yeah i cant remember names. But i do recall a segment in the first Lizardmen army book with a page on the southland Lizardmen and the Slann there. I don't know if this was changed in later editions though.

Original lore had all of the first generation Slann as dead, with Kroak being the only named one. The second generation only had 5 living members apparently with Mazdamundi being the most active, there used to be the assumption that 1 of the remaining 4 was in Zlatlan in the southlands and the the other remaining 3 in Lustria.

I explicitly recall reading events of a younger generation slann in the southlands leading forces on behalf of the elder Slann of the city.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ashardalon:

if there where slann then distance wouldnt matter since their warp communication could easily reach other planets if there was anyone to talk to
so being a bit to the south really wouldnt matter

Yeah you would think so, but apparently they lost contact with the continents separated and the geometry of the earth taking them out of whack. But lore being lore, Lol.

[aerpyljov]

Exposure to warpstone, staying in Chaos Wastes for long and so on usually results in Chaos contamination and mutations.
But Oxyotl was in the flesh in the very Realm of Chaos without any consequences!
Are there any explanations, how this could be?
Are there any other mortal beings who went to Realm of Chaos and returned without becoming servants of Chaos?

[Ashardalon]

lizards are prettymuch made to resist chaos, so are more mutation resistant then most

[Reverend Belial]

Oprindeligt skrevet af aerpyljov:

Exposure to warpstone, staying in Chaos Wastes for long and so on usually results in Chaos contamination and mutations.
But Oxyotl was in the flesh in the very Realm of Chaos without any consequences!
Are there any explanations, how this could be?
Are there any other mortal beings who went to Realm of Chaos and returned without becoming servants of Chaos?

Oxyotl is a special boy, and his situation is never explained. How a little lizard can evade the notice of the Chaos Gods in their own realm is beyond serious explanation, we just know that he does.

And no, going to the Realm of Chaos doesn't even turn you to a servant, it just kills you. If your system doesn't just fail from the shock of unreality, daemons dogpile you and you die.

And that of course is assuming that you survive the trip through the Wastes to the Northern Gate, which is flatly impossible unless one of the Four explicitly want you to (i.e. Valkia).

[cb4n28]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Reverend Belial:

Oprindeligt skrevet af aerpyljov:

Exposure to warpstone, staying in Chaos Wastes for long and so on usually results in Chaos contamination and mutations.
But Oxyotl was in the flesh in the very Realm of Chaos without any consequences!
Are there any explanations, how this could be?
Are there any other mortal beings who went to Realm of Chaos and returned without becoming servants of Chaos?

Oxyotl is a special boy, and his situation is never explained. How a little lizard can evade the notice of the Chaos Gods in their own realm is beyond serious explanation, we just know that he does.

And no, going to the Realm of Chaos doesn't even turn you to a servant, it just kills you. If your system doesn't just fail from the shock of unreality, daemons dogpile you and you die.

And that of course is assuming that you survive the trip through the Wastes to the Northern Gate, which is flatly impossible unless one of the Four explicitly want you to (i.e. Valkia).

Or unless you are Grimnir. Allegedly.