[Lore] Gork/Mork, actual good guys ?

[Virthuss (法國人在台灣)]

Lore question for the people who read the books and know well about the Warhammer universe in general.

So from my understanding, the known world was there before the coming of the old ones. Since the old ones tried to eradicate the greenskins, using the lizardmen they created, we can consider greenskins and Gork and Mork as the first inhabitants and deities of the old world, and as undesired ones.

It's true that then greenskins fought everyone in their path, including themselves. It's also true that they breed and eat using spores, which mean they don't have to think too much or change anything to their primitive habits.

So since they fought both rising empires ( human, dwarf... ) but also rising evil or chaotic threat such as chaos dwarves, skaven and Chaos to the point Gork teleported Grimgor to Archeon for a final clash, can we somehow consider greenskins and Gork and Mork as the original good guys, basically the original deities of the known world fighting whoever invade and try to either colonize or destroy the known world ?

To compare, can we compare greenskins in Warhammer to the Contingency of Stellaris, basically a safeguard preventing any potential threat to reign or threaten the known world as the planet itself ?
Which would mean there would be 3 actual factions:
- order ( "good" creations of the old ones )
- chaos
- known world neutral ( basically fighting to keep the world in its original state, untainted by neither chaos or civilisation )

Just trying to understand the Lore a bit more. Thanks in advance!

[Fauxsteel]

Outside of Skarsnik and Rotgut, I know every little about Fantasy Greenskin lore.
I don't know if Gork and/or Mork have ever been proven to actually exist in the old world.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember reading anywhere outside of claims by Greenskins that they exist.

[Magarita S P]

Цитата допису cb4n28:

Цитата допису drazan:

Greenskins are not good and not bad at the same time
They will fight whoever puts up a fight, be it good guys or bad guys.

That's all they care about, continious fighting.

I don't know, I think from our perspective we could label them as clearly evil. Beyond just wanting to fight, they are casually cruel and enjoy inflicting suffering on others. Greenskins; particularly the gobbos, gnoblars and snotlings, but really all of them to a notable extent; enjoy torturing other living beings

Take this passage from the Skarsnik novel describing the fate of villagers captured after a Greenskins raid

Цитата допису Skarsnik by Guy Haley, beginning on page 49 of the Kindle Edition of the Warlords of Karak Eigh Peaks Omnibus:

They feasted on man and horse alike, gorging themselves on half-raw hunks of meat. The young of the village, squalling infants broiled like chicken…they brought the women down later in the day. What they did, I will not speak of, but they understood well enough how to evoke anguish in the hearts of those men watching. When done with poor Esme and the rest, they raked the coals of the fire onto the floor. They dragged in the innkeeper’s son. To the wailing of terrible pipes they made him dance a jig barefoot on the coals. Every attempt he made to escape was met with a wall of spear butts. His screams were a terrible song. The greenskins found it hilarious, laughing and cheering and mimicking his agonised hopping. Eventually he could dance no more. He fell to his knees and howled. They dragged him from the coals, put out his eyes and pulled him away into the night. I never saw him again.

There are tons of other passages in that book describing incredible cruelty and a love of torture on the part of the Greenskins, making it clear that this behavior wasn't an isolated incident.

I mean I don't want to get into an argument about the definition of evil, but if broiling babies, making prisoners watch as you sexually torture some people to death just to make your captives feel "anguish" and then forcing a teenager to dance on hot coals until he falls to his knees in agony then gouging his eyes out just for laughs isn't the behavior of bad guys, I don't know what is

Greenskins are clearly evil in 40k though,they dont only seek fights,but they find join in torturing senselessly those civilians captured who can not fight back,and iirc in the war of beast they did something very awful

[Magarita S P]

Цитата допису Fauxsteel:

Outside of Skarsnik and Rotgut, I know every little about Fantasy Greenskin lore.
I don't know if Gork and/or Mork have ever been proven to actually exist in the old world.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember reading anywhere outside of claims by Greenskins that they exist.

They do exist in AoS which is confirmed
in 40k not sure about it because all are loose

[Ashardalon]

Цитата допису Fauxsteel:

Outside of Skarsnik and Rotgut, I know every little about Fantasy Greenskin lore.
I don't know if Gork and/or Mork have ever been proven to actually exist in the old world.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember reading anywhere outside of claims by Greenskins that they exist.

its the warp and orcs have faith
by definition they exist
also why are people bringing up aos as if its a thing

[Lamp]

Цитата допису Fauxsteel:

Outside of Skarsnik and Rotgut, I know every little about Fantasy Greenskin lore.
I don't know if Gork and/or Mork have ever been proven to actually exist in the old world.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember reading anywhere outside of claims by Greenskins that they exist.

Well as for lore/origins the greenskins are grown like fungus, from spores. First the snotlings sprout from little mushrooms and they tend the patch until goblin mushrooms sprout. Then the goblins get started building things until the orc mushrooms grow.

As for Gork and Mork they may just be an idea given form. Like the chaos gods are formed from aspects of life and started as soon as life started doing w/e thing they're associated with (hence Kugath is the oldest, cuz as long as life has been around there's been decay/death.) Other gods like Khaine, as far as I know, were created by godlike advanced beings to guide their associated races. One of those "old ones" may have also been influenced by a minor chaos god that either was or became the Horned Rat, and ended up creating the Skaven. So Gork and Mork may have physically existed, but greenskins are so alien and strange they may also straight up just be an idea that's naturally ingrained in their growth and given power by the warhammer world being the way it is.

Yeah so dunno for sure, I'm just riffing.

[Magarita S P]

Цитата допису Ashardalon:

Цитата допису Fauxsteel:

Outside of Skarsnik and Rotgut, I know every little about Fantasy Greenskin lore.
I don't know if Gork and/or Mork have ever been proven to actually exist in the old world.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember reading anywhere outside of claims by Greenskins that they exist.

its the warp and orcs have faith
by definition they exist
also why are people bringing up aos as if its a thing

aos is canon,it is a thing no matter how the comunity view it.Im a Nagash fan and I dont feel right for example stupid skavens can blow 2 times his pyramid up but GW said it is then it is,Im never happy with the end time and I feel salty they dont make Vlad survive it like ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Tyrion and Teclis and the traitor Manny did but look,canon is canon.I think maybe one day end times gonna get a chaos storm type retcon but until then,aos is a thing and canon

[Ashardalon]

just because gw cant write anymore doesnt mean the old story has to be made ♥♥♥♥
its not a thing
there is no reason for it to be a thing

[Magarita S P]

Цитата допису Ashardalon:

just because gw cant write anymore doesnt mean the old story has to be made ♥♥♥♥
its not a thing
there is no reason for it to be a thing

What drug are you on dude?AoS didnt retcon the world that was,what happened in the world that was was still canon except things got explicitly retconned like chaos storm
Never me liked AoS and I feel it is really unfair to Legion of Nagash player how can Teclis beat Nagash(when the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Archaon had to first lure Sigmar into Shyish to weaken Nagashs minions then send endless nurgle legions to waste his magic power until then he beat Nagash,but Teclis just....)so easily,or ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ useless noob Eltharion who is a nobody comparing to big players in the world that was,getting 1 shot by Arkhan could beat Arkhan so easily without even struggle,aelf basicly become mary sue Matt Ward style+,but I understand that you cant write something and make everyone happy,and while it is bad writing it is still cannon.They may get retcon later if comunity voice their frustration enough though.

[Captain T1]

Цитата допису Ashardalon:

just because gw cant write anymore doesnt mean the old story has to be made ♥♥♥♥
its not a thing
there is no reason for it to be a thing

Volkite weapons are a thing.

[Funky Monk]

Цитата допису Captain T1:

Цитата допису Ashardalon:

just because gw cant write anymore doesnt mean the old story has to be made ♥♥♥♥
its not a thing
there is no reason for it to be a thing

Volkite weapons are a thing.

And I love em!

[cb4n28]

Цитата допису Militante,Purgante,Triumphante:

Цитата допису cb4n28:

I don't know, I think from our perspective we could label them as clearly evil. Beyond just wanting to fight, they are casually cruel and enjoy inflicting suffering on others. Greenskins; particularly the gobbos, gnoblars and snotlings, but really all of them to a notable extent; enjoy torturing other living beings

Take this passage from the Skarsnik novel describing the fate of villagers captured after a Greenskins raid



There are tons of other passages in that book describing incredible cruelty and a love of torture on the part of the Greenskins, making it clear that this behavior wasn't an isolated incident.

I mean I don't want to get into an argument about the definition of evil, but if broiling babies, making prisoners watch as you sexually torture some people to death just to make your captives feel "anguish" and then forcing a teenager to dance on hot coals until he falls to his knees in agony then gouging his eyes out just for laughs isn't the behavior of bad guys, I don't know what is

Greenskins are clearly evil in 40k though,they dont only seek fights,but they find join in torturing senselessly those civilians captured who can not fight back,and iirc in the war of beast they did something very awful

Maybe I'm missing your point

As the passage I quoted demonstrates, Greenskins also find joy in torturing captives in Warhammrr Fantasy as well. So by your definition they'd be just as clearly evil.

[Imposter]

Цитата допису cb4n28:

Цитата допису drazan:

Greenskins are not good and not bad at the same time
They will fight whoever puts up a fight, be it good guys or bad guys.

That's all they care about, continious fighting.

I don't know, I think from our perspective we could label them as clearly evil. Beyond just wanting to fight, they are casually cruel and enjoy inflicting suffering on others. Greenskins; particularly the gobbos, gnoblars and snotlings, but really all of them to a notable extent; enjoy torturing other living beings

Take this passage from the Skarsnik novel describing the fate of villagers captured after a Greenskins raid

Цитата допису Skarsnik by Guy Haley, beginning on page 49 of the Kindle Edition of the Warlords of Karak Eigh Peaks Omnibus:

They feasted on man and horse alike, gorging themselves on half-raw hunks of meat. The young of the village, squalling infants broiled like chicken…they brought the women down later in the day. What they did, I will not speak of, but they understood well enough how to evoke anguish in the hearts of those men watching. When done with poor Esme and the rest, they raked the coals of the fire onto the floor. They dragged in the innkeeper’s son. To the wailing of terrible pipes they made him dance a jig barefoot on the coals. Every attempt he made to escape was met with a wall of spear butts. His screams were a terrible song. The greenskins found it hilarious, laughing and cheering and mimicking his agonised hopping. Eventually he could dance no more. He fell to his knees and howled. They dragged him from the coals, put out his eyes and pulled him away into the night. I never saw him again.

There are tons of other passages in that book describing incredible cruelty and a love of torture on the part of the Greenskins, making it clear that this behavior wasn't an isolated incident.

I mean I don't want to get into an argument about the definition of evil, but if broiling babies, making prisoners watch as you sexually torture some people to death just to make your captives feel "anguish" and then forcing a teenager to dance on hot coals until he falls to his knees in agony then gouging his eyes out just for laughs isn't the behavior of bad guys, I don't know what is

Sounds just like the autobiography accounts from "9 years among the Indians", by Herman Lehmann. He was abducted by the Apache, then ran away to the Comanche.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN9t-9P6D7g

[Virthuss (法國人在台灣)]

Цитата допису Kopejka:

From what I know about wh lore, Orks are more like an unstoppable force of nature.
Meaning they don't really care who's good and who's bad as long as there's fighting to be done.
The only affiliation that makes sense is them respecting whoever fights the hardest.
I might be wrong, but it does seem pretty accurate

That's what I mean. Orcs can be considered as a neutral force rising against whatever threat big enough to gain the upper hand. If that threat is the orcs themselves, they will just fight between themselves. Since they preserve the status quo, it means they are somehow neutral.

Цитата допису cb4n28:

Greenskins were not one of the original races inhabiting the Warhammer Fantasy world before the coming of the Old Ones. They arrived in the middle of the Great Plan

Thanks for clarification. From the sources I had, I understood greenskins were a nuisance that was there and that the Old Ones tried to wipe out. As it wasn't brought by the old ones, I believed the greenskins were already there. Guess the sources were not so clear.

Цитата допису theunspeakable:

Gork/Mork are more congealed Orky instinct than actual gods. Although, considering the difference given to them by the Ruinous Powers, it is theorized that they are they most powerful Warp entities and the only thing stopping them for overrunning the Immaterium, as the only thing stopping the Orkz from overrunning the physical world, is that they are constantly fighting each other.

Are they Good? No. Are they Evil? No. Iz dey Orky? WAAAAAAAAAGH!

Yeah but they somehow preserve the balance of the world by fighting whoever become too powerful. That would make Gork and Mork deities preserving a balance of power, and fighting themselves if balance there is.

[Magarita S P]

Цитата допису Virthuss (法國人在台灣):

Цитата допису Kopejka:

From what I know about wh lore, Orks are more like an unstoppable force of nature.
Meaning they don't really care who's good and who's bad as long as there's fighting to be done.
The only affiliation that makes sense is them respecting whoever fights the hardest.
I might be wrong, but it does seem pretty accurate

That's what I mean. Orcs can be considered as a neutral force rising against whatever threat big enough to gain the upper hand. If that threat is the orcs themselves, they will just fight between themselves. Since they preserve the status quo, it means they are somehow neutral.

Цитата допису cb4n28:

Greenskins were not one of the original races inhabiting the Warhammer Fantasy world before the coming of the Old Ones. They arrived in the middle of the Great Plan

Thanks for clarification. From the sources I had, I understood greenskins were a nuisance that was there and that the Old Ones tried to wipe out. As it wasn't brought by the old ones, I believed the greenskins were already there. Guess the sources were not so clear.

Цитата допису theunspeakable:

Gork/Mork are more congealed Orky instinct than actual gods. Although, considering the difference given to them by the Ruinous Powers, it is theorized that they are they most powerful Warp entities and the only thing stopping them for overrunning the Immaterium, as the only thing stopping the Orkz from overrunning the physical world, is that they are constantly fighting each other.

Are they Good? No. Are they Evil? No. Iz dey Orky? WAAAAAAAAAGH!

Yeah but they somehow preserve the balance of the world by fighting whoever become too powerful. That would make Gork and Mork deities preserving a balance of power, and fighting themselves if balance there is.

vampires,especialy von carstein and lahmia,are those who fighting what become too much a threat,and also skaven before endtimes do that

[Virthuss (法國人在台灣)]

Цитата допису Militante,Purgante,Triumphante:

Цитата допису Virthuss (法國人在台灣):

That's what I mean. Orcs can be considered as a neutral force rising against whatever threat big enough to gain the upper hand. If that threat is the orcs themselves, they will just fight between themselves. Since they preserve the status quo, it means they are somehow neutral.


Thanks for clarification. From the sources I had, I understood greenskins were a nuisance that was there and that the Old Ones tried to wipe out. As it wasn't brought by the old ones, I believed the greenskins were already there. Guess the sources were not so clear.


Yeah but they somehow preserve the balance of the world by fighting whoever become too powerful. That would make Gork and Mork deities preserving a balance of power, and fighting themselves if balance there is.

vampires,especialy von carstein and lahmia,are those who fighting what become too much a threat,and also skaven before endtimes do that

But both vampires and skaven seek domination over others while the primitive nature of orcs prevents them from organizing anything close to a stable kingdom.