Sisters vs Ice Guard

[yuzhonglu]

Are they similar?

[I LIVE AGAIN]

they both are white woman, of course they are similar

[SarmatII]

Origineel geplaatst door Fendelphi:

The only thing that Sisters of Avelorn have as an advantage is their high base Melee Defense and Martial Prowess(which is removed when they take too much damage).

It's >25% HP, which is 75% of the melee fight, they have very high melee stats!

Late game all the dangerous units you fight in mass quantities have 100-120 armor.

Ice Guard bow damage sucks. Literally a crossbow early game dmg.

[pascal.difolco]

Origineel geplaatst door Slaanesh Cultist:

Origineel geplaatst door Fendelphi:

That is wrong.
Sisters of Avelorn have 36 melee attack and 7 Charge Bonus. Standard Ice Guards have 42 melee attack and 9 Bonus vs infantry and 16 Charge Bonus. They are so much better in melee.
They also attack faster, have more health and armor, are Immune to Psychology and have the By Our Blood passive, making them Unbreakable when it goes poorly.

The only thing that Sisters of Avelorn have as an advantage is their high base Melee Defense and Martial Prowess(which is removed when they take too much damage). If they get hit from the rear or something with a big charge bonus hits them, they will still take high damage.

Oh yea ice guard sure are better when you hand wave away the passives from sisters while assuming maximum value from ice guard passives 🤣

Only advantage of Halberd IceGuards is indeed Anti large/anti charge bonus, but SoA are better in every other case, and even then a SoA army will melt any cav or monstrous inf in a matter of seconds

[SarmatII]

Origineel geplaatst door pascal.difolco:

Only advantage of Halberd IceGuards is indeed Anti large/anti charge bonus, but SoA are better in every other case, and even then a SoA army will melt any cav or monstrous inf in a matter of seconds

Yup. The only weakness with SoA doomstack is running out of ammo.

Else they melt high armored elite late-game units so fast rarely even need to melee.

Ice Guard literally HAS to melee grind it out because its AP damage is so weak.

[Fryskar]

Sisters have a default of 38MD +12 basicly until they break (>25% hp). IGG have 38 IGS have 36.
Sisters have 40 armor, IG have 50.
Sisters have 36MA, IGG 32 IGS 42. IGG have +17BvL, IGS +9Bvi.

IG have the 30% slow adventage IGG have charge defense, sisters have better AP.
Both will crumble fairly well if facing decent cav in smiliar number. The higher MD doesn't really matter during charge. IGG will clearly survive way longer vs cav due to charge def.

[Enelith]

(Considering OP's definitely not a newbie at this game ~ he's been there for a while ~, I wonder if the original purpose wasn't just a "who's the strongest Avenger / Super Hero / Villain / Whatever ?" kind of question which leads to mass chaos and pointless infightings...)

[Fendelphi]

Origineel geplaatst door PhoBoChai:

Origineel geplaatst door Fendelphi:

The only thing that Sisters of Avelorn have as an advantage is their high base Melee Defense and Martial Prowess(which is removed when they take too much damage).

It's >25% HP, which is 75% of the melee fight, they have very high melee stats!

Late game all the dangerous units you fight in mass quantities have 100-120 armor.

Ice Guard bow damage sucks. Literally a crossbow early game dmg.

Sure, they need to get below 25% health, but it is still a factor. You cant diminish the combat effectiveness of Ice Guards in the same manner.
There are various ways for units to drop below 25% health. Spells, artillery, ranged harass, cavalry charges, etc.. Point is, while their Melee Defense starts very high, once the situation gets dire, that too will go away.

Crossbows are one of the best all-round ranged weapons for their price. They have just enough AP that they stay relevent against heavy armor. So no, their damage does not suck. It is adequate for their role.
Ice Guards slows enemy movement. This can help you set up kill boxes, magic bombardments, or a bunch of other tactics.

Sisters of Avelorn has one purpose. Damage. If they cant deliver on that(55% shield block, high missile- and/or fire resistance, or ward saves. Or terrain), they cant assist in any other way. Once lines are met, they either have to flank around to keep firing, or is forced into melee.
And once their ammo runs out, they are little more than expensive fodder.

Ice Guards do not have such issues. Because their role is different.

[Fendelphi]

Origineel geplaatst door Slaanesh Cultist:

Origineel geplaatst door Fendelphi:

That is wrong.
Sisters of Avelorn have 36 melee attack and 7 Charge Bonus. Standard Ice Guards have 42 melee attack and 9 Bonus vs infantry and 16 Charge Bonus. They are so much better in melee.
They also attack faster, have more health and armor, are Immune to Psychology and have the By Our Blood passive, making them Unbreakable when it goes poorly.

The only thing that Sisters of Avelorn have as an advantage is their high base Melee Defense and Martial Prowess(which is removed when they take too much damage). If they get hit from the rear or something with a big charge bonus hits them, they will still take high damage.

Oh yea ice guard sure are better when you hand wave away the passives from sisters while assuming maximum value from ice guard passives 🤣

I did no such thing. You even quoted me. "an advantage is their high base Melee Defense and Martial Prowess".
The point is, once they are in a bad situation, Martial Prowess will go away. It will not keep them fighting once they are getting hammered by artillery or terror bombed.
12 extra Melee Defense will not help much to negate 50-60 charge bonus from enemy cavalry, or impact damage from charges.
Charge Defense vs Large, does though.

The opposite is true for Ice Guard. When they get into a bad situation, they fight even harder(unbreakable) and they do not care about Fear or Terror(Immune to Psychology).
And the Glaive variant has Charge Defense vs Large.

You assumed that Sisters of Avelorn are better in melee, which is factually wrong, which is why I corrected you.
If you dont believe me, you can run a test. Get a friend to help you out. 1 unit of Sisters of Avelorn vs 1 unit of standard Ice Guards. Turn on melee mode. Have them fight it out and see who wins.

[Fendelphi]

Origineel geplaatst door Fryskar:

Sisters have a default of 38MD +12 basicly until they break (>25% hp). IGG have 38 IGS have 36.
Sisters have 40 armor, IG have 50.
Sisters have 36MA, IGG 32 IGS 42. IGG have +17BvL, IGS +9Bvi.

IG have the 30% slow adventage IGG have charge defense, sisters have better AP.
Both will crumble fairly well if facing decent cav in smiliar number. The higher MD doesn't really matter during charge. IGG will clearly survive way longer vs cav due to charge def.

Not only would IGG survive longer vs cav charges, they would probably defeat them. They not only negate the charge bonus(decreasing damage and accuracy of the enemy charge), but also gain a mass bonus, which combined with the slow effect will reduce the damage from Impact damage(since it is a function of delta-speed and mass).
To top it off, they also have Reflect damage against the enemy chargers.
Basically, enemy cav will have their charge damage reduced to only their weapon strength, and their MA to only their standard MA.
With IGG high AP and bonus vs Large, they will both outnumber the enemy cavalry and also hit them easier and harder, than the cavalry will do to them.

[chickabumpbump]

Heres an idea, Im at work so Im not going to do it.

Make a custom battle with an army VS just sisters and repeat it VS ice guard and see who wins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWLETnpcKqs

[jonoliveira12]

As soon as Blood Dragons, Khorne Knight with Lances, Grail Knights and a few others come into play in significant numbers, you will wish those Sisters were Ice Guard Glaives.
Not every maps lets you shoot at Cavalry before it makes contact, and Sisters do melt like basic Archers, when the top line Cavalry charges in.

[Fryskar]

Origineel geplaatst door Fendelphi:

Origineel geplaatst door Fryskar:

Sisters have a default of 38MD +12 basicly until they break (>25% hp). IGG have 38 IGS have 36.
Sisters have 40 armor, IG have 50.
Sisters have 36MA, IGG 32 IGS 42. IGG have +17BvL, IGS +9Bvi.

IG have the 30% slow adventage IGG have charge defense, sisters have better AP.
Both will crumble fairly well if facing decent cav in smiliar number. The higher MD doesn't really matter during charge. IGG will clearly survive way longer vs cav due to charge def.

Not only would IGG survive longer vs cav charges, they would probably defeat them. They not only negate the charge bonus(decreasing damage and accuracy of the enemy charge), but also gain a mass bonus, which combined with the slow effect will reduce the damage from Impact damage(since it is a function of delta-speed and mass).
To top it off, they also have Reflect damage against the enemy chargers.
Basically, enemy cav will have their charge damage reduced to only their weapon strength, and their MA to only their standard MA.
With IGG high AP and bonus vs Large, they will both outnumber the enemy cavalry and also hit them easier and harder, than the cavalry will do to them.

That heavily depends on the cav and if they can get their charge off.
As you said, the archers can't blob too much, else they become a too easy target for magic/arty and other massive aoe punishment. In a 20v20 you'd have to be a micro god, but i guess in smaller scales its possible enough to hit them while they rotate.
But it barly matters which cav it is, if they get a charge or even worse a rear charge off, IGG will suffer. But sisters will suffer no matter what, if sufficient cav gets to charge.

[Arthur two sheds Jackson]

I guess the ice guard are more noob friendly if they get stuck in melee its more forgiving
while the sister with good micro can melt any unit before they can reach them but they are less durable if by mistake the foe do reach em

[SpeaksTooFast]

Origineel geplaatst door Enelith:

(Considering OP's definitely not a newbie at this game ~ he's been there for a while ~, I wonder if the original purpose wasn't just a "who's the strongest Avenger / Super Hero / Villain / Whatever ?" kind of question which leads to mass chaos and pointless infightings...)

If he was looking for an ally recruitment unit it makes sense. I think in that case the sisters have better damage against most targets but the Ice Guard may have a bit more utility.

Speaking talking about specific units in different factions is not really directly comparable as there are a lot of faction specific variables.

[pascal.difolco]

Origineel geplaatst door SpeaksTooFast:

Origineel geplaatst door Enelith:

(Considering OP's definitely not a newbie at this game ~ he's been there for a while ~, I wonder if the original purpose wasn't just a "who's the strongest Avenger / Super Hero / Villain / Whatever ?" kind of question which leads to mass chaos and pointless infightings...)

If he was looking for an ally recruitment unit it makes sense. I think in that case the sisters have better damage against most targets but the Ice Guard may have a bit more utility.

Speaking talking about specific units in different factions is not really directly comparable as there are a lot of faction specific variables.

I'd get AP version missiles any day, being better vs cav is much less useful, you should have melted them (at least the few really dangerous) before contact