Sisters vs Ice Guard

[yuzhonglu]

Are they similar?

[A.Pot]

About as different from one another as Kossars are to High Elf Archers.

Sure both are elite archer units but they fill different roles. Sisters of Avelorn should be staying back there to shoot the enemy with the magic arrows which is better for outright killing the enemy. Ice Guard are pretty alright melee fighters (they still are fairly lightly armored though) but their magic arrows are more for slowing down the enemy while the rest of your troops can shoot the enemies.

[SpeaksTooFast]

It really comes down to damage types, the main difference IMO is that Sisters are AP so should do better against armored targets. Their biggest weakness can be their fire damage as when you are shooting anything with high fire and missile resistance they will stack against you.

The Ice Guard are a true hybrid unit that can actually do decent damage in melee if paired against their chosen opponent, I think the anti-large also get charge reflect which can be dangerous and great to watch your flanks.

If you are actually curious I'd recommend watching one of the damage type breakdowns and look into armor reduction.

TLDR: Sisters should do more damage against most things you need to kill fast but Ice Guard do great in the RoC campaign where you are often outnumbered and normally fighting less armored demons.

[jonoliveira12]

Ice Guard are all-rounders, Sisters of Avelorn are Ranged Light Artillery.
They both have a ranged attack with magical damage, but that is the only thing they share in common.

Ice Guard are better because they do not autolose in melee, but Sisters are vastly the superior ranged unit.

[SarmatII]

SoA are better, AP damage for lategame means they put out hurt vs elite units. Ice Guards lack AP, most of their dmg gets nullified by high armor.

They may melee better, but SoA are not exactly weak in melee either, with high melee stats. Plus, if you leave on fire at will, guard mode, SoA will still shoot their bows in melee meaning they still dish out very high dmg, even more than melee units.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by PhoBoChai:

SoA are better, AP damage for lategame means they put out hurt vs elite units. Ice Guards lack AP, most of their dmg gets nullified by high armor.

They may melee better, but SoA are not exactly weak in melee either, with high melee stats. Plus, if you leave on fire at will, guard mode, SoA will still shoot their bows in melee meaning they still dish out very high dmg, even more than melee units.

Sisters melt against Cavalry, specially monstruous Cavalry.
You have to get another unit to frontline for them.

Ice Guard, you can have whole armies with naught but them, and they will be viable, because tehy can frontline by themselves, and Ice Guard Glaives are good vs Cavalry.

With SoA, all you can melee is Infantry, while Ice Guard have the option of Infantry-melters or Cavalry-grinders.

[SarmatII]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Sisters melt against Cavalry, specially monstruous Cavalry.
You have to get another unit to frontline for them.

Ice Guard, you can have whole armies with naught but them, and they will be viable, because tehy can frontline by themselves, and Ice Guard Glaives are good vs Cavalry.

With SoA, all you can melee is Infantry, while Ice Guard have the option of Infantry-melters or Cavalry-grinders.

Nope. SoA can literally focus fire kill Cav or weaken them so much by the time they reach melee, they get shot in the face a few times n rout.

Doomstack SoA highly effective & cost effective.

FYI: Most cav have terrible shield block making focus fire SoA on them deadly, AP means they melt.

Ice Guard vs late game army, loses most of their range DPS due to high armor. They end up grinding it out in melee. SoA retains their strong range DPS even IN MELEE, if you put them on guard & fire at will.

[Iolaus]

All you need is a light wizard to snare anything charging towards SoA, and SoA nuke the fast, "dangerous", helpless unit (or units if overcast).

[Mr.Hmm]

Originally posted by PhoBoChai:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Sisters melt against Cavalry, specially monstruous Cavalry.
You have to get another unit to frontline for them.

Ice Guard, you can have whole armies with naught but them, and they will be viable, because tehy can frontline by themselves, and Ice Guard Glaives are good vs Cavalry.

With SoA, all you can melee is Infantry, while Ice Guard have the option of Infantry-melters or Cavalry-grinders.

Nope. SoA can literally focus fire kill Cav or weaken them so much by the time they reach melee, they get shot in the face a few times n rout.

Doomstack SoA highly effective & cost effective.

FYI: Most cav have terrible shield block making focus fire SoA on them deadly, AP means they melt.

Ice Guard vs late game army, loses most of their range DPS due to high armor. They end up grinding it out in melee. SoA retains their strong range DPS even IN MELEE, if you put them on guard & fire at will.

Sisters of Avelorn are not a hybrid unit, thus if you put them in melee range they wont use their bows.
Ice Guards are a hybrid unit thus even if in melee range they will still use bows.

[SarmatII]

Originally posted by Mr.Hmm:

Sisters of Avelorn are not a hybrid unit, thus if you put them in melee range they wont use their bows.
Ice Guards are a hybrid unit thus even if in melee range they will still use bows.

Nope.

Since WH2, all range units, if you put guard mode on, fire at will on, and leave them in melee, they will melee in the first rank, the rest will fire their range weapons.

Try it.

[Father Ribs]

The Ice magic generals and (maybe?) the heroes have abilities they can learn in training to buff Ice Guard even more in either melee or ranged combat. If you're fielding Ice Guard, you definitely want to train a specific general for them.

[Fendelphi]

Sisters of Avelorn is a ranged damage unit. Its high AP ratio and range makes it excellent at killing enemy units. The fire damage component can be a bonus or detriment, depending on the target's resistance, but is overall a good thing, since it reduces the effectiveness of healing.
They are competent enough in melee to not be instantly defeated by dogs and light fliers or chaff summons and will even win some of those fights fairly easy. However, against decent melee units, they will trade poorly and eventually lose.

Ice Guards are a true hybrid unit. Their bows have comparable damage to Crossbows and will slow down enemies, making it decent all around either for focusing down an enemy on their own or setting up a target for your Streltsi(AP) to fire at.
They have slightly more health, armor and some magic resistance, so they deal with enemy ranged attacks and magic better than Sisters of Avelorn.
In melee, they have overall better combat stats(only exception is melee defense). They attack faster, have magical attacks in melee(SoA does not), are immune to psychology and have the "By Our Blood" passive, allowing them to actually hold dangerous units in melee for other elements to target.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Iolaus:

All you need is a light wizard to snare anything charging towards SoA, and SoA nuke the fast, "dangerous", helpless unit (or units if overcast).

That depends on the amount of fast, dangerous elements.
If you hypothetically are allowed to stack 18-19 SoA units in your army, the enemy is allowed the same with the counter. Net of Amyntok has a cooldown and obviously cant net them all. Also, an enemy caster will also be able to nuke your archers or cast a debuff on them to reduce their accuracy.

Point is, in a 1 vs 1, with good micro, most heavy Cav will defeat Sisters of Avelorn. Sure, they will take a beating getting up to them, but they will win most of the time once engaged.
And the point is, again, even with good micro, most heavy Cav will lose to Ice Guards with Glaives.

[Ashley]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by PhoBoChai:

SoA are better, AP damage for lategame means they put out hurt vs elite units. Ice Guards lack AP, most of their dmg gets nullified by high armor.

They may melee better, but SoA are not exactly weak in melee either, with high melee stats. Plus, if you leave on fire at will, guard mode, SoA will still shoot their bows in melee meaning they still dish out very high dmg, even more than melee units.

Sisters melt against Cavalry, specially monstruous Cavalry.
You have to get another unit to frontline for them.

Ice Guard, you can have whole armies with naught but them, and they will be viable, because tehy can frontline by themselves, and Ice Guard Glaives are good vs Cavalry.

With SoA, all you can melee is Infantry, while Ice Guard have the option of Infantry-melters or Cavalry-grinders.

Yeah I don't think so. Sisters melt basically everything. Cav should be targeting early. Unless ai brings a whole army of them (probably wont). Ice guard are weaker sisters.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Slaanesh Cultist:

Originally posted by PhoBoChai:

Nope.

Since WH2, all range units, if you put guard mode on, fire at will on, and leave them in melee, they will melee in the first rank, the rest will fire their range weapons.

Try it.

And sisters have better melee attack and defense than ice guard. Sisters do literally everything better than ice guard.

That is wrong.
Sisters of Avelorn have 36 melee attack and 7 Charge Bonus. Standard Ice Guards have 42 melee attack and 9 Bonus vs infantry and 16 Charge Bonus. They are so much better in melee.
They also attack faster, have more health and armor, are Immune to Psychology and have the By Our Blood passive, making them Unbreakable when it goes poorly.

The only thing that Sisters of Avelorn have as an advantage is their high base Melee Defense and Martial Prowess(which is removed when they take too much damage). If they get hit from the rear or something with a big charge bonus hits them, they will still take high damage.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by WALTUH:

Yeah I don't think so. Sisters melt basically everything. Cav should be targeting early. Unless ai brings a whole army of them (probably wont). Ice guard are weaker sisters.

You CAN just bring Ice Guards(swords and glaives), and they will do ok against most armies except artillery. Anything that can potentially counter them can be focused down or will be absorbed by the Glaives.
For Sisters of Avelorn, you rely on always being able to fire. That means that factors like your own micro is a major factor(if you are able to deal with multiple, simultaneous threats). Terrain is also a major factor(trees and hills will diminish your ability to target enemies effectively). Because if the enemy reach you, it is more or less over.
The same is not true for Ice Guards, because they rely less on always being able to shoot to stay effective.

In a "real" army, you dont just bring Ice Guard. You bring a combined army. Ice Guards role is to slow key enemies for your high AP units to easily target.
They can also function as a blender unit in melee or for dealing with cavalry, if needed(depending on which variation we talk about).
Sisters of Avelorn has a single purpose. If they get countered in that role(an early spell decimating them, reducing their overall damage output), they will fail at that role.
If the opposing side brings as much good quality cavalry as you have archers, you will lose a lot of units if you have nothing to screen for them.


Even if you kill half the models in a unit of Ice Guards, they can still slow down key targets. They will still hold the enemy for quite a while if engaged melee, allowing other elements to easily target said enemy. They can still flank and quickly cut through enemy infantry.


Comparing the 2 units makes little sense, since they have different roles.

It is like comparing Sepulchral Stalkers with Treekin.