全面战争:战锤3

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Stoinker666 2022 年 9 月 6 日 上午 7:15
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"All Legendary Lords now begin with the Siege Attacker trait"
Why??? Makes no sense...
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正在显示第 16 - 30 条,共 110 条留言
Falaris 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 1:23 
Who does this actually affect? Most LL's already had siege attacker, I think, and it was getting rather hard to see the reasoning for why the remaining ones didn't.
Gamefever 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 1:40 
Counting on Walls by themselves to hold a city has been an age old tactic, however that does not mean it is the best tactic to hold a city or to make an AI or another player for that matter think twice about the attack.

What actually works is something that I have no idea how many players employ.

Hire a Lord, place them at the city you want defended.

This Lord does not have to have a full stack behind him, which is a likely reason why players dont hire such Lord's.

Over an over again in the forums, common complaint about how a players back line or home base is being over run by armies and how they can not press forward for gains let alone cover their holdings with the armies that they have.
WHY?

Because these players have it set in stone that every army they create must be a full stack.

These armies do not need to be full stacks, often just the Lord itself plus the garrison is enough to fight off the more common low tier trash that makes it that far in, these armies avoided your LL for a reason because your LL is too powerful for them.
Even 1 Lord with a few spearmen can actually deter anything but multiple army invasion, or high tier stack attack, this is because a garrison gives ~14 units. 14 Units means, 1 Lord + 5 spears is a full stack for defence with the advantage of walls.

One could take this further even, since you already plan to leave an army behind...Why not go wall less? The extra economic boon would likely pay for a 20 stack of tier 1 units and since the AI will attack your lands you get the added benefit of additional incoming resources marching into your lands through fights that when won give gold, levels, retainers, and magic items!
Cybran 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 2:43 
this game is getting easier and easier pls i just want to play a strategy game
Sauske 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 2:45 
引用自 OTSEchoZenLogos
引用自 Stinker666
Why??? Makes no sense...

Because you already could take cities with walls by having units magically get ladders out of their rears, and it made no sense that you arbitrarily couldn't fight those battles because you lacked one unit with a "siege attacker" ability.

Honestly I'm surprised they didn't do this earlier. Considering they have removed the strategy needed in building even things like ladders ever since the first Total War Warhammer game, in favor of making sieges possible to do immediately with mystic ladders you summon out of nowhere, this seems like a natural decision.

I would prefer it if ladders weren't all automatically held by units and you had to build siege properly, and wish there were more options for siege constructables (like shields your infantry can push forward for arrow cover, or basic artillery you can use only in t hat battle). But that's not where the games have been going for 5+ years, and so I'm content with them at least making their current system work better.

Not that I really disagree, but at that point, why give this trait to only LLs? Why not all lords, then? Or just rework the whole thing so that there is simply no requirement for launching a siege battle?

Having it only on a select few where it made some sense made them special and cool, giving it to every LL makes no sense, cheapens the trait, and makes almost no difference anyway, as most lords won´t be legendary.
Nylan 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 10:58 
引用自 Falaris
Who does this actually affect? Most LL's already had siege attacker, I think, and it was getting rather hard to see the reasoning for why the remaining ones didn't.
The trait is meant to say they are good for taking out the gate. So now Gelt has it.. with his whopping ~280 weapon strength at level 1 he is "good" at smashing gates. Not that i dislike Gelt, or that he needs it (he already starts with artillery), but i see no reason a spellcaster should be turned into a battering ram.

One thing i have noticed, things like chaos hounds started doing rather well at tearing down gates recently. Had 2 units of those smash a gate before my ram on the other side of a settlement reached that gate. They don't have the damage output to really have done it.. yet they do. Probably just some odd balancing thing, as that's a unit meant to be weak vs armor (Surely the gates are armored.. Right?).
identity 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 10:59 
Keyword legendary, a lot of factions will have trouble confederating other lords, and some cases not at all. I don't consider this a problem. The AI will rarely confederate another legendary, so you won't be getting punished by it either.
SmellyTerror 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 11:05 
引用自 Gamefever
Counting on Walls by themselves to hold a city has been an age old tactic, however that does not mean it is the best tactic to hold a city or to make an AI or another player for that matter think twice about the attack.

What actually works is something that I have no idea how many players employ.

Hire a Lord, place them at the city you want defended.

This Lord does not have to have a full stack behind him, which is a likely reason why players dont hire such Lord's.

Over an over again in the forums, common complaint about how a players back line or home base is being over run by armies and how they can not press forward for gains let alone cover their holdings with the armies that they have.
WHY?

Because these players have it set in stone that every army they create must be a full stack.

These armies do not need to be full stacks, often just the Lord itself plus the garrison is enough to fight off the more common low tier trash that makes it that far in, these armies avoided your LL for a reason because your LL is too powerful for them.
Even 1 Lord with a few spearmen can actually deter anything but multiple army invasion, or high tier stack attack, this is because a garrison gives ~14 units. 14 Units means, 1 Lord + 5 spears is a full stack for defence with the advantage of walls.

One could take this further even, since you already plan to leave an army behind...Why not go wall less? The extra economic boon would likely pay for a 20 stack of tier 1 units and since the AI will attack your lands you get the added benefit of additional incoming resources marching into your lands through fights that when won give gold, levels, retainers, and magic items!

So much this.

Until recently I didn't read much about the game, but my kids got into it and struggled with that early game. The same way I struggled in my very first campaign (ahh, the memories) Guys, where's your back line army? One guy, maybe three melee and two shooters. That plus a garrison will hold against most early stuff.
kekkuli 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 11:11 
I think siege attacker trait should be removed altogether.
Fryskar 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 11:24 
引用自 kekkuli
I think siege attacker trait should be removed altogether.
So you think you should be forced to build towers or the almost completely pointless rams, even if you already brought arty or living siege engines (monsters)?
Flyers make the concept of a traditional siege a bit pointless too.

引用自 OTSEchoZenLogos
ladders rant
Unless they'd either give more/quicker ladders built per or/and remove the fatigue penalty, i'd never bother building them.
Ladder rush only makes sense if you either outmatch them by far or don't care about losses.
abyssalfury 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 11:30 
While I agree this feels like a band aid, I assume it was done because some LLs get screwed by not having easy/early access to siege attackers. E.g. from memory Kat couldn't get a non-ally Siege Attacker before Tier 4, because that's the earliest Kislev gets them and she loses her starting Bear in IE.

That isn't really a 'fun' element, it doesn't really make for an interesting strategic choice. It just means that only some factions get to ignore the whole mechanic. Now, at least everyone gets to ignore it with one of their Lords.

I don't think it's the optimal solution, but I also don't think it's just dumbing down the game for the sake of dumbing it down. This way, they don't have to base starting armies and unit availability around Siege Attacker, so (at least in theory) they've got more room for variety and interesting choices.
Sauske 2022 年 9 月 6 日 下午 11:33 
引用自 abyssalfury
While I agree this feels like a band aid, I assume it was done because some LLs get screwed by not having easy/early access to siege attackers. E.g. from memory Kat couldn't get a non-ally Siege Attacker before Tier 4, because that's the earliest Kislev gets them and she loses her starting Bear in IE.

That isn't really a 'fun' element, it doesn't really make for an interesting strategic choice. It just means that only some factions get to ignore the whole mechanic. Now, at least everyone gets to ignore it with one of their Lords.

I don't think it's the optimal solution, but I also don't think it's just dumbing down the game for the sake of dumbing it down. This way, they don't have to base starting armies and unit availability around Siege Attacker, so (at least in theory) they've got more room for variety and interesting choices.

That is super dumb though. LLs were always balanced around that need - Vlad for example always had siege attacker, because he is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ beast. Mannfred on the other hand did *not* have it, and he did not need it, since he started with a varghulf in his army.

That is a far better game design than this BS of giving siege attacker to every LL regardless of how little sense it makes.

"You get siege attacker!"

"And you get siege attacker!"

"And you..."
abyssalfury 2022 年 9 月 7 日 上午 1:24 
引用自 Ainess
引用自 abyssalfury
While I agree this feels like a band aid, I assume it was done because some LLs get screwed by not having easy/early access to siege attackers. E.g. from memory Kat couldn't get a non-ally Siege Attacker before Tier 4, because that's the earliest Kislev gets them and she loses her starting Bear in IE.

That isn't really a 'fun' element, it doesn't really make for an interesting strategic choice. It just means that only some factions get to ignore the whole mechanic. Now, at least everyone gets to ignore it with one of their Lords.

I don't think it's the optimal solution, but I also don't think it's just dumbing down the game for the sake of dumbing it down. This way, they don't have to base starting armies and unit availability around Siege Attacker, so (at least in theory) they've got more room for variety and interesting choices.

That is super dumb though. LLs were always balanced around that need - Vlad for example always had siege attacker, because he is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ beast. Mannfred on the other hand did *not* have it, and he did not need it, since he started with a varghulf in his army.

That is a far better game design than this BS of giving siege attacker to every LL regardless of how little sense it makes.

"You get siege attacker!"

"And you get siege attacker!"

"And you..."

Except....they clearly weren't, as pointed out with the Kislev example. Do you think it's intended gameplay design for Kislev LLs not to have access to Siege Attacker until late game, even though everyone but Kat starts off with it in RoC? I fully expect this will be addressed with DLC in the future, but right now it's just an arbitrary restriction on Kislev for no real reason.

Now, you could say 'Well, just make sure every LL starts off with a Siege Attacker', but is that actually any different from just skipping the middle man and giving every LL Siege Attacker?

In regards to 'it doesn't make sense for LL's to have SA', why not? Are we really going to argue that say, a unit of Trolls makes sense to have SA, but not something like a Mage LL or all of the superhumans running around with magical weapons? I mean, if SA actually made for a meaningful mechanical difference in sieges, this would be a legit argument, but it doesn't. It just means you don't have to wait a turn building a useless piece of siege equipment you're not going to use.
heh 2022 年 9 月 7 日 上午 1:38 
This isn't about whether or not lord should be able to break down walls.

It's about sieges having been trivialized more and more over the course of the game.

Now, literally, 20 dogs can chew down a max-tier city's gate in as many seconds.

Having to build rams or siege towers or needing to bring artillery to take a city now makes no sense. The only reason to build siege equipment is for meta reasons; an army without siege attacker in it needs siege equipment to be *allowed* to attack the city. So you build your ram, then enter the battle, then immediately drop the ram and run up to the gate to punch it down with your bare hands.

Sieges have become more and more degenerate ever since they made assladders a thing.
For sieges to matter, assladders can't be a thing. And random units can't be able to punch down gates.
But assladders *are* a thing. And literally any unit *can* punch down a city gate with its bare hands. So demanding siege eqipment to be able to siege a city makes no sense.

They should just remove the siege attacker requirement entirely.

Also, defenders should be allowed to position troops outside the walls before the start of battles, but that's a different point.
Witski 2022 年 9 月 7 日 上午 7:23 
引用自 76561198022369703
This isn't about whether or not lord should be able to break down walls.

It's about sieges having been trivialized more and more over the course of the game.

Now, literally, 20 dogs can chew down a max-tier city's gate in as many seconds.

Having to build rams or siege towers or needing to bring artillery to take a city now makes no sense. The only reason to build siege equipment is for meta reasons; an army without siege attacker in it needs siege equipment to be *allowed* to attack the city. So you build your ram, then enter the battle, then immediately drop the ram and run up to the gate to punch it down with your bare hands.

Sieges have become more and more degenerate ever since they made assladders a thing.
For sieges to matter, assladders can't be a thing. And random units can't be able to punch down gates.
But assladders *are* a thing. And literally any unit *can* punch down a city gate with its bare hands. So demanding siege eqipment to be able to siege a city makes no sense.

They should just remove the siege attacker requirement entirely.

Also, defenders should be allowed to position troops outside the walls before the start of battles, but that's a different point.
Putting troops outside the walls is stupid and doesn't make any sense.
Better get the ladders like the ram-towers and give melee defence to whoever is on the walls , also let the back row face forward so we can put archers behind melee units, sieges fixed.
CrUsHeR 2022 年 9 月 7 日 上午 7:58 
Well. If you look at certain factions like Clan Eshin or Nagarythe -

Basically their speciality are surprise attacks with stealthy elite units. They can simply scale the walls unnoticed, then wreck everything from the inside. Or open the doors for units like Alith Anar before he gets the sneak perk.

Previously, you always needed an extra unit like Warp Grinders just for the Siege Attacker trait. Even if you would always just retreat that unit, and it was 100% useless everywhere else for the Master Ambusher playstyle.
Otherwise you would have to spend 1 turn building a Battering Ram which you would also just drop once the battle starts.


So basically they just fix the logic of those army types. And it only works for Legendary Lords, so it's not like all your armies would "ignore" the walls (which isn't the case anyways, the walls are still there in battle).
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发帖日期: 2022 年 9 月 6 日 上午 7:15
回复数: 109