Cathay is broken in land battles

[Mr. Teufel]

As the title says, the basic troops of Cathay (jade warriors) are way more powerful than they should be. They beat units one on one that they should stand no chance against.
For example: Jade warriors (low-mid tier unit with no AP) comfortably beats white lions (300 extra gold unit with decent armor and AP) and they trade very effectively even against chosen for only 500 gold...

[MattStriker]

With the given example I suspect the reason is less Jade Warriors being OP and more that White Lions are still as trash as they've always been when not in Alastar's stack.

[Antearz]

Originally posted by Mr. Teufel:

As the title says, the basic troops of Cathay (jade warriors) are way more powerful than they should be. They beat units one on one that they should stand no chance against.
For example: Jade warriors (low-mid tier unit with no AP) comfortably beats white lions (300 extra gold unit with decent armor and AP) and they trade very effectively even against chosen for only 500 gold...

Cathay isnt Broken at all to be Honest.
Frankly. Its pretty Weak in Landbattles.


First Off.
Jade Warriors are Tanky but not Strong.
And Honestly said I dont know how you messed up there. But they absolutely do NOT beat White Lions.

Jade Warriors vs White Lions
Result.
White Lions Win with 80 Kills while taking only 10 Losses.

Jade Warriors vs Saurus Warriors.
Result.
Saurus barely Win with 80 Kills vs 60 Losses.

Jade Warriors vs Sword and Shield Infantry
Jade Warriors Win with 60 Kills vs 40 Kills.

Jade Warriors vs Barbarians
Jade Warriors Win with 90 Kills vs 50 Kills

Jade Warriors vs Ork Boys
Jade Warriors Win with 80 vs 40 Kills

Jade Warriors vs Dwarfen Warrior.
Jade Warriors barely Win with 90 vs 70 Kills.

I did not Test Champions or Chosen because even normal Chaos Warriors totally Massacre Jade Warriors with an 80 vs 10 Kills Ratio.



Now then.
For the Verdict.


Jade Warriors are not Base Units.
They are Tier 2 Melee Infantry.

They are Fairly Strong for their Price.
Considering they held up fairly Decently against Saurus Warriors which while also being Tier 2 Melee infantry are much more Expensive with 750 Gold.

But they do not hold a Candle to T3 Melee Infantry.
And more Importandly. While being pretty Strong as Melee Infantry.
They lack Power against Large Units and Cavalry.
Which is even more Bothersome since they Neighbor Chaos and Ogres both of which tend to use Monsters and Monstrous Infantry alot.

The Reason that Jade Warriors have that Decent Price Performance measure.
Is because Cathay pretty much Lacks other Melee Capacity in T3.
Meaning that the Jade Warriors have to Cover all the way until you reach Tier when you can Recruit the Heavenly Guard Units.

On T3 Cathay instead only gains the Halberdiers which are actually weaker in Melee than the Jade Warriors but which in exchange can go up against Monsters and Large Units properly.

Against Ogre Bulls for example. Which also only cost 500. The Jade Warriors get completely Massacred only taking down 6 of 24 Ogres.


Furthermore. Cathay Lacks any Melee Commanders that can Aid in the Battle.
Their Commanders are Generally Support and Magic Users.
Meaning that especially in the Early Game. The Jade Warriors need to effectively form the Backbone for Cathay as Cathay simply has no other means of Holding down the Frontline.



Frankly. I am not even sure how anyone would find Cathay Strong in Landbattles.
The Lizardmen, The Empire, The Vampires, The Ogres.
Most Factions Generally will Beat Cathay in a Direct Battle.
Yes. The Jade Warriors are very Good for their Price. I would put them at T2.5
But Cathay also does not have any better Melee Infantry on T3

What does allow Cathay to actually Fight.
is that Cathay does have alot of Buffs and Gimmicks which it needs to use to actually be Strong in Landbattles.
But most of these require Micro Management and make you Vulnearble to certain Attacks.
(Which is why Cathay is so Weak in Multiplayer. As the AI is generally Stupid enough that it will not Exploit this. While Players if they have some Experience will easily overcome the Gimmicks if you try to use them)

And another thing needs to be Mentioned here as well.
These other Factions that do Beat Cathay in Open Battle.
Do actually have Gimmicks themselves.

[Mr. Teufel]

Well I’m saying it because it is true. I tested it again. With harmony (which is not even on 100%, 9 out of 12) and without any additional buff/debuff they do WIN against white lions with more than 1/3 hp remaining. With Miao’s MA debuff and max harmony it is not even close. I do watch (and play) competitive MP in the form of land battles and I discuss stuff with some top tier player and they all agree that cathay is OP in land battles.



Also white lions does have their martial prowess which gives them 2 MA and 12 MD until they are above 25% HP, which means more than 80% of the duration of the fight I am talking about. It doesn’t matter that Jade warriors have only 7 AP weapon strength they will mow down the 80 armors of the white lions and I dont know how, but realisticly white lions should win this confidently



And I know that white lions are suboptimal units but they are generalist AP units a tier above a generalist non AP jade warriors and they lose. Yes this is with harmony but cathay ALWAYS have harmony in land battles, and the use case that white lions reach the front line with 100% HP is non existennt bevause cathay have a huge ranged advantage ove HE with the rockets, cannons and crane gunners… I don’t know why you lot thinks that cathay is weak in land battles but if you do, you do something REALLY wrong with them.

[Lucius Kern]

Jade warriors are equal to Chaos warriors and Grave Guard. Tier 2.5 to 3.
Celestials are ofcourse better but so are Chosen to Chaos.
but fielding Jade warriors and Chaos warriors is super duper delicious!

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Mr. Teufel:

Well I’m saying it because it is true. I tested it again. With harmony (which is not even on 100%, 9 out of 12) and without any additional buff/debuff they do WIN against white lions with more than 1/3 hp remaining. With Miao’s MA debuff and max harmony it is not even close. I do watch (and play) competitive MP in the form of land battles and I discuss stuff with some top tier player and they all agree that cathay is OP in land battles.



Also white lions does have their martial prowess which gives them 2 MA and 12 MD until they are above 25% HP, which means more than 80% of the duration of the fight I am talking about. It doesn’t matter that Jade warriors have only 7 AP weapon strength they will mow down the 80 armors of the white lions and I dont know how, but realisticly white lions should win this confidently



And I know that white lions are suboptimal units but they are generalist AP units a tier above a generalist non AP jade warriors and they lose. Yes this is with harmony but cathay ALWAYS have harmony in land battles, and the use case that white lions reach the front line with 100% HP is non existennt bevause cathay have a huge ranged advantage ove HE with the rockets, cannons and crane gunners… I don’t know why you lot thinks that cathay is weak in land battles but if you do, you do something REALLY wrong with them.

I did a test with 50% harmony too. The jade warriors lost slightly.

I mean either way its clear they outtrade white lions. White lions kind of seem like they suck too, and I've heard pretty bad things about high elves in multiplayer battles (though maybe that's just domination) so it seems unsurprising they'd lose to Cathay.

To me it seems like Jade warriors might be like 50-100 gold too cheap, and white lions might be like 50 overpriced. Idk I'm not a big MP person, I just haven't been able to replicate your jade warriors winning other than by using miao ying (probably zhao ming too), which is like using a life wizard to cast regrowth and then saying greatswords beat swordmasters.

Also while its true that Cathay is always going to have harmony, not every unit is going to have the 50% harmony buff. You need your lord specifically nearby, so unless you're just putting yourself into a tiny box only some of the units will have that, and there will probably be periods where you don't have harmony at all. I think that's a realistic best case scenario for the jade warriors as a result (and no I'm not counting miao ying, there's only 2 units on the cathay roster that give 100% harmony so if that buff is too powerful those 2 units should have their price increased).

[Tom]

Cathay is downright oppressive against certain factions on MP land battles.

Khorne will struggle to an insane degree against Cathay "Box strat" since they lack aoe unless you bring Valkia. This is magnified by the fact that the faction ability will be possible to activate basically when it's too late.
Now to list all the possible options:
- Trying to use AOE on Valkia? Won't work because they will bring flying goon squad + crane gunners (so your own flying squad will do nothing)
- Elite infantry? Will die to cannons/crane gunners/talons of the night/final transmutation
- Mid tier infantry? Won't do anything thanks to the insane harmony buffs
- Low tier infantry? Same problem as mid tier infantry.
- Cavalry? Blocked by the halberd wall
- Monsters and single entities? Killed by cannons/crane gunners/final transmutation spam

The combo of Final Transmutation + 200% harmony which will also be active all time is insanely effective vs faction which has literally 0 useful AoE/artillery.
Fighting against 32 MA, 46 MD, 76 LD armor piercing jade warriors with halberds and 90 armor with 100% charge resistance is one big joke (and they cost only 700 gold so)

Another example:
Dwarfs facing spam of crane gunners, the elite AP crossbowmen, jader warriors and Miao Ying.
Crane gunners easily kill your arty, then proceed to kill all of your shooters together with their crossbowmen while your infantry is fighting their cheap jade warriors.
Meanwhile Miao Ying constantly attacks your shooters/arty in melee; killing her is problematic since as soon as she's in danger; she transforms into dragon, flies 1000 km away and heals.