How to make Warhammer 3's Multiplayer Great

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Sorry if this thread becomes a bit long. Please bear with me in reading it all. Try reading it by sections if you want.


But this is something I've been thinking about recently and I thought it'd be kind of fun to talk about with others.

I think that they could stand to rework and change some things when it comes to multiplayer to make it a little more fun overall.

I'll just get straight into it.


Factions
Unit Caps
LL Buffs


Factions
Well, this one would actually be fairly easy for CA to do, mainly because it mostly pertains to the chaos factions.

I think that what CA should do with the chaos factions is to simply mix the generic WoC with the DoC and turn them into Chaos Undivided, and just move the various devotee LLs to their respective god's faction.

And I mean, it's all really just menu stuff, which wouldn't be that big of a deal.

The reason I want to see them do this is mainly because I think that with the 5 main chaos factions and then people can build their chaos armies however they want. Though there would be some reasonable limits.

I think that all the Khorne LLs should be for Khorne's faction, and the other done in a similar way, while the LLs for Chaos Undivided should be Arachon, Be'lakor, Kolek, Daniel, and any other undivided LLs and the like.

But I'll just get into the section about unit caps, as that would play a major part in the Chaos Undivided race in multiplayer.


Unit Caps
I won't lie, I honestly think that CA should just implement hard unit caps instead of having them be toggleable, at least in multiplayer.

Now, I think that they shouldn't try to put unit caps on ALL units, but just kind of implement them like they did back in Napoleon, which could actually make it somewhat like how the TT was supposed to have limits on special and rare units.

What I mean is that they should only really have elite units or specific types of special units be limited in just how many can be brought per battle.

The unit caps for things like Exalted Bloodletters should be limited to like 4 units, but not count RoR units as part of the same cap, as they should be limited to just one unit anyway.

But I do think that hard unit caps would also help future races like the DoW really feel like they can't just spam pikes or any one thing within their roster too much as well.


But as I mentioned before, about the whole chaos undivided faction and all that.

Well, I think that what CA should do is simply make copy and paste versions of god specific units, and then give them to chaos undivided faction so, but with different caps, just so that they won't be too OP.

Even the more basic things like Bloodletters should be limited in a chaos undivided army, but be capped at something like 6-8, just so they can't all be spammed endlessly.

But things like the chosen of each god would be limited to only like 2 to 4 at max, as they should feel like they're armies aren't fully able to draw endlessly for each god's stuff.


LL Buffs
This one's pretty simple.

I want to see CA give each LL a special buff or banner or something to really make them stand out as properly legendary characters.

I think that these can come in a good number of abilities or banners of sorts, and have a fairly wide range of effects and so on.

I'd like to see someone like Grimgor either get a straight buff to Black Orcs specifically or have an "Da Immortalz" banner ability that greatly increases the Leadership, MA, and MD of nearby units.

But I think that they could do quite a lot of things like that, like giving Grom and Skarsnik at least leadership for goblin units and such that they're known for leading.

I just feel that this sort of thing would really be able to spice up the multiplayer and make it a lot more fun to play if all the LLs can have special buffs and what not beyond what they have now.


But what do you guys think?

What sort of stuff do you think they could add in to make the multiplayer even better?

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Professor H. Farnsworth původně napsal:

Here's the thing though. I don't need to try MP to know it's not for me.

And just like that I'll stop you right there.

Here's a fact pal.

If you have NEVER played the MP, then you have NO right to judge it, or really say anything about it. And that is a fact, and whether you like that or not doesn't matter.

I will tell you, actually be willing to try the MP battles before trying to talk like you know anything about them.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Old Dirty Bingo Caller původně napsal:

Yeah if people only gave it fair chance surely they'd come to same conclusion as you chubby, because ALL humans are exactly the same, preferences, and all...
Jfc..

Oh shut up Bingo. Quit assuming stuff.

What I'm clearly pointing out is that if people actually gave the MP a fair chance, they'd at least see that it could be pretty fun, certainly more fun than they first thought, and that there's a reason for it to be in the games.

But of course, you'll just try to deflect that point and pretend it doesn't exist.

[8-The-General-8]

I think MP is great myself but seems lacking with cheesing draws etc.

Also, unit spam (Though, back in the day having a player predominately cav whatever was fine so was kind of ok... 4vs4 ohhh yeeeaahhh!!! ), ; No mode to restrict unit types for more competitive play.

Lack of games available to join.

Recently, well a month ago, there were threads about someone even cheating. Unheard of in TW games before I am sure... Just about any other PVP game on Steam is subject to cheaters.

Stuff like that. It's a put off.

In SP as noted above, every battle has a meaningful impact on campaign. Heroes can be lost, etc., more enjoyable even if AI are a bit predictable.

Until above gets addressed, I can definitely wait. Though, I did really enjoy it at heart in the past.

[Professor H. Farnsworth]

chubbyninja89 (TNB) původně napsal:

Professor H. Farnsworth původně napsal:

Here's the thing though. I don't need to try MP to know it's not for me.

And just like that I'll stop you right there.

Here's a fact pal.

If you have NEVER played the MP, then you have NO right to judge it, or really say anything about it. And that is a fact, and whether you like that or not doesn't matter.

I will tell you, actually be willing to try the MP battles before trying to talk like you know anything about them.

Uhm, no I've never played them. So what? I already said I play Total War for the Empire building part? As is the case for most other people. They play the game to build an Empire and defeat other Empires... It's the whole sales pitch of the game.

I'm not looking down on Battles either, stop acting like a kid that was denied candy in the grocery store. I'm merely saying that Battles never will be as popular as Singleplayer. Go do a bit of research if that comes as a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ surprise to you.
The minority should never affect the majority. You want changes to MP, fine. Make it MP only changes and leave Singleplayer the ♥♥♥♥ out of it, that's not looking down on MP either.

Way to look like an entitled prick.

[Jack Deth]

As long as they stop messing with single player for the benefit of multiplayer I say do whatever. The Vampire Counts/regen/nehek thing was not a single player balance act in the beginning.

And no, sorry kids but "what is balanced for multiplayer means a better and balanced experience for single player" is not a solid argument.

Multiplayer is meant to try and make matches between 2 or more people more engaging and balanced while single player is directed more towards keeping the game fun, varied and focus on engaging with 1 player rather than having to juggle a multitude of them.

It's similar arguments in tabletop where "tournament balance" in theory makes the game better.

Fact time, it doesn't.

What it leads to is removing options, watering down factions, dumbing down rules (which is different from streamlining. it's sort of an Aristotle golden mean shtick)..

Now granted, CA can get around needing to put in the work to "balance" 2 systems by adding in research/technology trees that can help any multiplayer interference for the single player experience which is a solid approach.

Other solutions would be the harder approach of taking the time to balance multiplayer on the focus of "competitive balance" where as single player wouldn't sacrifice gameplay variability, faction identity while pushing for a different type of balance (more asymmetrical rather than giving dwarfs magic and cavalry as terrible examples of the mythical "balance").

WoW and tons of games have shown the majority of the time all multiplayer balance, especially at the expense of the single player experience, is a nausea like swirl of round robin flavor of the month rotations.

Total War Warhammer's single player, much like the tabletop games match or scenario play, was meant to provide challenges but most importantly be varied and depth of play through having factions that were different. Compounded with the fact that say, Starcraft has what 3 factions while Warhammer has multitudes more the focus was always on being able to have a fun and challenging experience as a faction that felt different.

Rather than being little more than skin swaps.

Lastly, the single biggest ting the multiplayer crowd should be calling for (I know this will chafe them a bit but you can thank me later) is getting CA to spend less time focusing on nerf fest whack a mole of factions and diluting them for 1 or 2 game modes but to focus on introducing more game modes.

Or balancing the old ones better.

Have a collection of different game modes, set it up into a pool best of 3 style match system. Dwarfs may suffer in 1 but excel in 2 or more others, other factions can benefit from this as well.

Also I think people need to realize their is a huge difference between multiplayer in regards to playing with friends and those seeking "competitive multiplayer".

Further, just as the multiplayer community has done with this game and many have for years with the tabletop game, house rules work far better for balancing a game for a more competitive field.

House rules can be pushed out quicker than CA can do and more often than not better approaches to maintaining a healthy multiplayer game and most importantly is done in a manner that does not in any way shape or change a single player game.

[Ashardalon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jidPC-P0QAY
so what your suggesting to do with caps is force people even harder in the just spam chaff meta
no interesting units allowed anymore
just swarm the enemy because infantry stacking isnt punished in any way
the idea to cap everything but the most optimal choice isnt going to make anything more interesting
you will just see the same meta army over and over again, just like you do now, because by definition MP people hate fun

[8-The-General-8]

Ashardalon původně napsal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jidPC-P0QAY
so what your suggesting to do with caps is force people even harder in the just spam chaff meta
no interesting units allowed anymore
just swarm the enemy because infantry stacking isnt punished in any way
the idea to cap everything but the most optimal choice isnt going to make anything more interesting
you will just see the same meta army over and over again, just like you do now, because by definition MP people hate fun

As a mode choice, yes.

Some players can counter almost any spam build and some just abhor it.

[Old Dirty Bingo Caller]

chubbyninja89 (TNB) původně napsal:

Old Dirty Bingo Caller původně napsal:

Yeah if people only gave it fair chance surely they'd come to same conclusion as you chubby, because ALL humans are exactly the same, preferences, and all...
Jfc..

Oh shut up Bingo. Quit assuming stuff.

What I'm clearly pointing out is that if people actually gave the MP a fair chance, they'd at least see that it could be pretty fun, certainly more fun than they first thought, and that there's a reason for it to be in the games.

But of course, you'll just try to deflect that point and pretend it doesn't exist.

WHAT? you're telling me to stop assuming stuff..?

"People like you truly believe you have some sort of right to pass judgement on something you've never tried before. And yeah, with the way you and some other are talking about the TW MP, it'd be safe to think that you guys have never actually gave it a fair chance.

People need to stop being like
"Oh, I lost a single battle in X TW game's MP! I hate it forever! REEEEE!"

Seriously. You guys NEED to get over your silly fears of losing at video games and such, and just actually be willing to keep trying so that you get better."

This is you from post 25..

Stop being a hypocrite.

[Ashardalon]

8-The-General-8 původně napsal:

Some players can counter almost any spam build and some just abhor it.

everything is counterable
that doesnt change that there is an optimal choice
and as in every pvp game, the optimal choice will be the only one you see

[Sawboss]

People throw tantrums because they've tried it, didn't like it, then see PvP people act like they're superior. Seen it on many forums for many games.

Like this

chubbyninja89 (TNB) původně napsal:

I'm sure a lot of the people who try to say the MP doesn't matter were like this at best
"Oh no, I lost a single MP battle! So I'm not going try to learn to improve, but just hate on
the MP for no real reason!"

chubbyninja89 (TNB) původně napsal:

People need to stop being like
"Oh, I lost a single battle in X TW game's MP! I hate it forever! REEEEE!"

Seriously. You guys NEED to get over your silly fears of losing at video games and such, and just actually be willing to keep trying so that you get better.

This isn't a matter of trying to replace the SP campaigns, but to just get people to actually try the MP and realize that it can be a lot of fun.

OR MAYBE, they don't like multiplayer. You repeatedly say people should just try it, then when they say they have you ignore it.
Because that's what your opinion is and

chubbyninja89 (TNB) původně napsal:

So many people are ALWAYS trying to hide behind their opinions as if they're magical shields that protect them from ever being wrong about anything, and I won't stand for such nonsense.

[Noin Trongaz]

Old Dirty Bingo Caller původně napsal:

(SOTM) Noin původně napsal:

Sure you can talk about whatever you want. And the other people will tell you what they think about it.

You should definitely come back when you learn some comprehension.

Sorry mate, but you cannot produce a single real argument and hide behind "it's my opinion, I am free to say whatever I want, but you can't say what YOU want!" instead. It is actually fairly ironic that after such a retort you would say that it's the other side which is lacking comprehension, as you deflected everything that has been said and failed to produce any information which would support your position.
"The devs should not waste time on MP, because... that's how I feel. I literally have no other reason to say it" this is NOT a valid argumentation, asking other to respect such an opinion while you literally saying that exactly THE part of the game which gives us the most fun and we would probably not play the game without it, is a waste of time for the devs. Because only your fun matters, I suppose?

Professor H. Farnsworth původně napsal:

chubbyninja89 (TNB) původně napsal:

Well, you'd be wrong, yet again.

And as I've told others before, actually try the MP before saying it's "not for you" or whatever. At least with a group of friends.

Because if you can't do that, you don't really have the right to talk down about it.

Here's the thing though. I don't need to try MP to know it's not for me. I simply wouldn't enjoy it, because it's just a battle albeit against a smarter opponent.
But Battles do not give the opportunity to Empire build and that is what I enjoy along side of course annihilating the AIs Empires.
No amount of trying Battles would make me enjoy those. If I wanted PvP I would go play PvP games I do enjoy - such as Overwatch and MOBAs.

It is a well known fact that Battles is a very tight knit community - always has been in Total War, there is absolutely no need to deny this. There is a reason why it is such a small part of Total War.. It does not appeal to most people. It never will. PvP does not appeal to the majority. It never has.

And a lot of SP players - which is the majority, are down right frustrated that Battles decide balance when it mainly just screws over SP players, because Battles players got whiny.

I enjoy empire building as well. I can recommend you trying a head-to-head campaign. Then let's say if you and I play together, each one of us chooses a faction and every time I attack an AI or get attacked by it, you see the armies in question and get asked whether you want to take control of the AI army. So, basically, this way you can train and get some experience playing against me even before our actual armies meet on the strategic map. If you feel that this battle is so one-sided that it would be a waste of time, you can refuse to take control and let me autoresolve or stomp the AI in manual. If you decide not to control the AI army and the other player still wants to fight manually to reduce losses, the other player can give you control of his units, so you can fight the AI together co-op style instead of simply watching.
So basically you play a normal campaign but every proper battle you have would have another player controlling the enemy army instead of the AI.

Trust me, it took me a while to try MP. I felt like I just would be roflstomped by all these competitive players. My reaction speed is not great, I am old. I mostly play turn-based RPGs and strategies, because I dislike having to react fast and not having enough time to think things through.
If you want, I can play with you for one hour, not competitive or anything. I would just give you a taste what the game is like when the enemy is not doing exactly the same thing every battle.

[Noin Trongaz]

8-The-General-8 původně napsal:

I think MP is great myself but seems lacking with cheesing draws etc.

Also, unit spam (Though, back in the day having a player predominately cav whatever was fine so was kind of ok... 4vs4 ohhh yeeeaahhh!!! ), ; No mode to restrict unit types for more competitive play.

Lack of games available to join.

Recently, well a month ago, there were threads about someone even cheating. Unheard of in TW games before I am sure... Just about any other PVP game on Steam is subject to cheaters.

Stuff like that. It's a put off.

In SP as noted above, every battle has a meaningful impact on campaign. Heroes can be lost, etc., more enjoyable even if AI are a bit predictable.

Until above gets addressed, I can definitely wait. Though, I did really enjoy it at heart in the past.

I invite you to play a head to head campaign with me for just one hour once the IE is out. In no way competitive, it's not about winning or losing at all, just to have fun. I can play as Trench Craventail :D Then if after one hour you don't find the experience in any way enjoyable, I will publically apologize here on the forums or something like this.

[Yoda32001]

Some people have tried multi player and simply don't like it . I have tried it but I have only meant idiots when i try so I only play with family or solo. That being said it isn't really what the thread is about for those who do enjoy it I think house rules and agreements if it is a multi player campaign are really the only ways to "improve" it as there is very little ca can do to stop people from cheating,cheesing, or just plain being annoying.

While your ideas aren't bad I just fail to see how they would really change anything to make it better and as far as multi player battles go competitive matches have always been about beta/cheese builds and nothing will ever change that except for player agreements before hand not ca.

[Blue]

Bring Back Shogun 2's avatar Multiplayer mode. They also had the normal custom games that we already have, so it's just an addition.

But being able to, *gasp* PAINT YOUR MODELS, was cool as well as leveling them up.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

8-The-General-8 původně napsal:

Oh, I totally agree dude, cheesing and spamming suck, and can really take a lot away from the TW MP.

All I really want is for people to at least appreciate what the MP for what it is and what it has to offer.

But I also find that the MP is far more fun when you have friends to play it with, be as a team or in vs matches.