Valkia and Azazel

[Scar Glamour]

In a prime example of fridge logic it has occurred to me that unlike Vilitch or Festus, who are horribly mutated, but still very much mortal servants of their respective Chaos gods, Valkia and Azazel are in fact Daemon Princes. Or rather they are a Daemon Prince and a Daemon Princess. Yet neither of them is classified as a daemon in Total War Warhammer at all.

Is there any plausible lore explanation I don't know about or is it just another case of 'CA does thing'?

[Lady MacBeth]

Scar Glamour eredeti hozzászólása:

Jerroser eredeti hozzászólása:

Although Azazel definitely is a Daemon Prince in the lore, Valkia is actually a bit of a contentious topic. Basically in the armybooks and TT rules she is also just a heavily mutated mortal rather than a Daemon Prince. Its just that in the main book written about her, the author takes a few creative liberties with her and makes her a Demon Prince instead, which is what a lot of the wikis tent to cite when talking about her. Its really just a case of which source you consider more canon than the other.

I am not a huge Warhammer books fan and my knowledge of the lore is a bit sketchy, but I do remember that Valkia died and Khorne brought her back, which means she could be nothing else but a Deamon Prince. Not to mention that she's got wings, horns, red skin, and even facial features of a daemon of Khorne...

brownacs eredeti hozzászólása:

Doesn't Azazel start out with the Daemonic trait? I could've sworn he does...

I just checked and indeed he does. I must have misremembered that one.

Daemons have very specific special rules in table top. Valkia has never received those rules in any iteration of the special character. The only thing that has ever called her a daemon prince outright was one book that was not written by GW. Nothing published by them has ever made her officially a daemon with the rules that go with that status. Now that might change when they release the old world though. Its possible.

This is her AOS rules, and you will notice she specifically has the Keyword Mortal here as well. Obviously its AoS not Warhammer, but just using it as an extra tidbit of information.
https://wahapedia.ru/aos3/factions/blades-of-khorne/Valkia-the-Bloody

[Scar Glamour]

Ming eredeti hozzászólása:

Daemons have very specific special rules in table top. Valkia has never received those rules in any iteration of the special character. The only thing that has ever called her a daemon prince outright was one book that was not written by GW. Nothing published by them has ever made her officially a daemon with the rules that go with that status. Now that might change when they release the old world though. Its possible.

Yeah, I guess that explains why CA made her a non-daemonic character in Total War even if that makes zero sense lore-wise.

Actually, now it makes me wonder how close are TT units in stats and roles to their Total War equivalents. I mean disregarding the obvious fact that one is a turn-based game and the other is real-time.

[Ashardalon]

Scar Glamour eredeti hozzászólása:

Jerroser eredeti hozzászólása:

Although Azazel definitely is a Daemon Prince in the lore, Valkia is actually a bit of a contentious topic. Basically in the armybooks and TT rules she is also just a heavily mutated mortal rather than a Daemon Prince. Its just that in the main book written about her, the author takes a few creative liberties with her and makes her a Demon Prince instead, which is what a lot of the wikis tent to cite when talking about her. Its really just a case of which source you consider more canon than the other.

I am not a huge Warhammer books fan and my knowledge of the lore is a bit sketchy, but I do remember that Valkia died and Khorne brought her back, which means she could be nothing else but a Deamon Prince. Not to mention that she's got wings, horns, red skin, and even facial features of a daemon of Khorne...

if she died and was brought back that actually means she isnt one
demons arnt brought back, they are ascended in life
just like kharne who was never ascended but was brought back several times
khorne likes to have its favorite as a not really mortal

[FDR'sThinkTank]

I thought when they released the DLC it was specifically mentioned that while CA acknowledges that these characters ARE Deamon Royalty... that they put them in the other faction because their abilities and focuses would make them practically identical to the existing representatives for each Chaos specific faction. By giving them different army lists, it makes them more unique and able to explore different strategies.

This isn't Creative Assembly's fault that Games Workshop lore is so sprawling that it contains a large number of anachronisms and nutty oversights.

[Holy Fool Sehrael]

SBA77 eredeti hozzászólása:

Holy Fool Sehrael eredeti hozzászólása:

What bothers me more is that Azazel is described as incredibly beautiful and yet... he isn't lol

https://us.v-cdn.net/5022456/uploads/editor/wi/augdndluqv21.png

Ironically enough I think he actually looks better in-game than GW officially made him look. His face seems a little more human than his official GW model which suits him better.

Yuk :D

[Scar Glamour]

Ashardalon eredeti hozzászólása:

if she died and was brought back that actually means she isnt one
demons arnt brought back, they are ascended in life
just like kharne who was never ascended but was brought back several times
khorne likes to have its favorite as a not really mortal

Yeah, well, everyone from Magnus to our favourite boy Daniel begs to differ. I know, I know, they didn't really die, but potato, patato.

[Ashardalon]

breaking in your last moment of life is prime time for the gods to get in
you get pretty desperate as the light in the tunnel gets closer
but dying and being worth bringing you all the way back
thats different

[ShivaX]

Valkia can unlock Daemonhood I thought at the end of one of her trees.

[SBA77]

ShivaX eredeti hozzászólása:

Valkia can unlock Daemonhood I thought at the end of one of her trees.

The debate is whether she's an actual demon in terms of lore, not whether she is based on her skill tree. It's a commonly discussed topic among Warhammer fans. Because Valkia has been referred to as a Daemon Prince in some novels, wiki articles and other places, and due to her appearance, many people think she's an actual Daemon Prince, while others think she isn't and is just a heavily favored and heavily mutated mortal champion of Khorne.

In terms of gameplay in TWW3 she's definitely mortal, there's not debate there. For starters she doesn't start with the aforementioned "Daemonhood" skill, unlike Azazel who is indisputably a Daemon Prince. She also routes normally by default and doesn't crumble like demons do.

[Jerroser]

LizzyInAbox eredeti hozzászólása:

Rules wise, Valkia was not a Daemon Prince despite the lore.

Although the whole situation with Valkia is probably one of the best examples, the lore as described by the Armybooks and Novel's from Black library has never lined up perfectly. Since the lore gets updated all the time and often authors can take a few creative liberties with how they write about the setting.

I've heard some people go so far as to outright say that all Novels are essentially non-canon in relation to the official lore from GW and should be discard as being practically on the level of fan fiction. But I feel its best to just slot everything in a kinda of hierarchy of canon where whats in the Armybooks takes precedent, then the Novels where the Armybook's don't contradict them. After that you have other minor pieces of media such as GW enforced role-playing games ect.

The other issue is that all of wiki's that many people get their information from are also written by fans. Who tend to just include everything that can possibly be regarded as a source and give it all equal weighting.

[crobs69]

Belekor is a daemon prince as well yet leads a warrior of chaos faction

[Garatgh Deloi]

Rhinopotamus eredeti hozzászólása:

Fan base can argue all they want it won't matter.

She is a Daemon Princess. Her specific book refers to her as a Daemon Princess. Mortkin's book calls her a Daemon Prince. The only book that does not is the 8th Edition Army book which could be chopped up to Balance or just something that slipped the editor; which happens all the time in Table Top Rulebooks (Look at numerous misprints/reprints/messups in D&D or AoS...).

She's the Bride of Khorne, his Favorite Servant, she spends 99% of her time, not on the battlefield, not just in the Realm of Chaos... but in the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Brass Citadel with Khorne himself... no mortal can withstand that. If it walks like a Daemon Princess, looks like a Daemon Princess, talks like a Daemon Princess, and waddles like a damn Daemon Princess... it's a Daemon Princess.

/End Rant

Heavily disagree.

The many varied personal books (or book series) are generally not a good source of reliable lore. Have you for example read Archeons personal books?

Anything written by games workshop like the army book tops them when it comes to lore accuracy.

That said, i'm not sure why games workshop didn't make her a deamon prince(ess). It seems very fitting.

Another source (the 3rd edition fantasy roleplay Khorne supplement) says she is "part deamon prince". So some sort of hybrid...

[MrDammit]

HellBilly eredeti hozzászólása:

Belekor is a daemon prince as well yet leads a warrior of chaos faction

Yep, the first deamon prince. he was turned into a shadow by the lords of chaos when he demanded to be made there equal. He hates the lords of chaos and has his own agenda.

[SBA77]

HellBilly eredeti hozzászólása:

Belekor is a daemon prince as well yet leads a warrior of chaos faction

That's only because they thought if they made him a Daemons of Chaos LL then Daniel wouldn't be special anymore.

[Ashardalon]

also him serving the gods instead of manipulating the mortals wouldnt fit