Are iron hail gunners bad?

[Dou B Jin]

I tried to use them early game but they seem be not worth over Peasant archers. Their range so so short that they get can maybe get one or two volley off before they have to back away from enemy melee, they have bad line of sight issues, extremely vulnerable to enemy range and the sheer volume of arrows from peasants makes up for the lack of armor pen they have. One more tier and I get cannons that seems to do way more damage and shoot way farther in most fights.

Am I not using them correctly?

[zacharyb]

You're supposed to use them a bit like you'd use Irondrakes, that is after a few front volleys you get them behind your melee line and then flank with them or use a checkerboard like formation, if used right they're actually pretty good.

[Lady MacBeth]

I prefer to use them setup with gaps for them to shoot through in the melee line. Works pretty well overall. Though I also only use at most like 2-3 of them when doing that. They seemed really good when I played cathay in roc. I haven't touched them in IE yet. Won't till they get a dlc or two since currently it would just be been there done that.

[Dou B Jin]

Originally posted by zacharyb:

You're supposed to use them a bit like you'd use Irondrakes, that is after a few front volleys you get them behind your melee line and then flank with them or use a checkerboard like formation, if used right they're actually pretty good.

I do use them like that but I still can't shake the feeling its not worth bringing when you have units like archers and crossbowmen that seems to hits farther with an arch or over all usefulness.

They seem to be one of the only source of early game anti-armor but most enemy I go up against are scaven, dark elves, and chaos (mostly marauders) which don't really have a lot of armors early game.

By the time I run into heavy armor enemies I already have Celestial crossbow and cannons so I never really feel like I got my worth from using Iron hail.

Iron drakes are better imo since they're aoe and have a morale shock effect and even knock ligher units back. They also have the armor and the durability that they dont get deleted for being to close too range units.

[zacharyb]

Originally posted by Jin:

Originally posted by zacharyb:

You're supposed to use them a bit like you'd use Irondrakes, that is after a few front volleys you get them behind your melee line and then flank with them or use a checkerboard like formation, if used right they're actually pretty good.

I do use them like that but I still can't shake the feeling its not worth bringing when you have units like archers and crossbowmen that seems to hits farther with an arch or over all usefulness.

They seem to be one of the only source of early game anti-armor but most enemy I go up against are scaven, dark elves, and chaos (mostly marauders) which don't really have a lot of armors early game.

By the time I run into heavy armor enemies I already Celestial crossbow and cannons so I never really feel like I got my worth from using Iron hail.

Iron drakes are better imo since they're aoe and have a morale shock effect and even knock ligher units back. They also have the armor that they dont get deleted for being to close to range units.

Well ya Irondrakes are a Tier 3 unit while Ironhail gunners are only a 1 or at least I think that's their tiers.

Ironhails probably excel the most in settlement battles though because of choke points and such, an enemy comes around the corner and you can blast them pretty good.

[Lost Latios]

Iron Hails are great for ripping up ogres and any large units, and they're also great for tearing up approaching melee units. It's one of your only anti-armor options for awhile, so they do their job when set up right.

However, you are correct about the archers. As much as Iron Hails have a role, Cathay's archers are pretty solid. Even the peasant archers hit pretty hard due to their numbers. Iron Hails also get countered pretty badly by any archer unit. This alone makes them tough to use against anyone with archers.

Thing is, they are a low tier gunpowder unit. You're not meant to use them for your late game army, but they are a great choice for a cheap anti-armor & large unit.

[Dou B Jin]

Originally posted by Lost Latios:

Iron Hails are great for ripping up ogres and any large units, and they're also great for tearing up approaching melee units. It's one of your only anti-armor options for awhile, so they do their job when set up right.

However, you are correct about the archers. As much as Iron Hails have a role, Cathay's archers are pretty solid. Even the peasant archers hit pretty hard due to their numbers. Iron Hails also get countered pretty badly by any archer unit. This alone makes them tough to use against anyone with archers.

Thing is, they are a low tier gunpowder unit. You're not meant to use them for your late game army, but they are a great choice for a cheap anti-armor & large unit.

Thats part of my issue with the units. Early games I go up against a lot of low armor enemies so the armor pent doesn't feel very useful and they tend to get out ranged by enemy range units as well. I haven't really feel like Ogre are a threat since the Yari Ashi-....the peasant spear-men seems to do a fine job deleting them.

I don't use them late game since cannons and celestial crossbowmen makes them completely obsolete.

I was hoping they work more like how heavy gunners from Shogun 2 where they can disrupt enemy charges by knocking them back, suppression or sunder armor so that they allow the archers to do more damage. But right now for the most part I feel like I can just spam archers and crossbow with a line of spear in the front and turn my brain off for the most part.

[Dou B Jin]

Originally posted by Ming:

I prefer to use them setup with gaps for them to shoot through in the melee line. Works pretty well overall. Though I also only use at most like 2-3 of them when doing that. They seemed really good when I played cathay in roc. I haven't touched them in IE yet. Won't till they get a dlc or two since currently it would just be been there done that.

In IE they're a bit out ranged by some other factions, early game particularly by Lockhart darkshards who will delete them and have a silver shield.

[identity]

Definitely not the best gunner type unit, but can be fairly decent when you utilize their yin/yang bonuses. Like most gunners, they go best on the flanks where they can shoot into the sides of the enemy line, which will tend to benefit them since they'll likely be in range of a yang unit.

[Fendelphi]

You are not supposed to bring a lot of them. Have a few to deal with armored units(60 armor and up) and for powerful flanking attacks(their burst is much better than archers or crossbows). Have your crossbows and archers for the rest of your ranged infantry.

Also, if you know that enemy ranged units will target them, you can use that to your advantage with the missile mirror spell.

[UnluckyNoob]

That's another multiplayer unit. They may destroy single monster unit in 1 of 10 fights and that's it. Most of the time (in siege battles) they are completely useless. Also note that they require useless artillery building to recruit.

[Nylan]

As the dragon lady i always grabbed a pair of them in ROC campaign on turn one. The 2nd where the rebel army usually stopped just outside of that settlement in march. They were outdamaging the sky-junk. Didn't find so much use in a siege, but in an open field, especially where the enemy reinforcements could be met and shotgunned as they entered the map they can really dish out some damage.

As has been said they can be replaced by better units as you unlock higher tier units. Still seemed like a good pick for an early army in limited quantities.

[pin]

Early game anti armor. Late game replaced completely with celestial dragon crossbows.

[Zane87]

Early game they are absolutely great if they can shoot unhindered. They largely outperform peasant archers and Jade crossbowmen and will stop enemy charges in their tracks, especially when in conjunction with above missile troops.

LoS issues are purely skill dependent, either use gaps in formations or make them your Frontline (I use 4 but make them very deeply ranked so more fit next to each other). As a supported Frontline very few enemies actually get close, especially if you put Jade Guard at their flanks in such a way:

\___/
....III.....
XXXXX

\,/ = Jade Guard, .,I = Ironhail, X = bow/Xbow units. Bonus points if you position heros in front to bait. That way they absolutely shred everything early and do huge amounts of damage.
I really wish there was a vanilla lategame variant of them, they'd be a stable in my armies throughout the game that way

[Veniczar B. Fontana]

Originally posted by Jin:

I tried to use them early game but they seem be not worth over Peasant archers. Their range so so short that they get can maybe get one or two volley off before they have to back away from enemy melee, they have bad line of sight issues, extremely vulnerable to enemy range and the sheer volume of arrows from peasants makes up for the lack of armor pen they have. One more tier and I get cannons that seems to do way more damage and shoot way farther in most fights.

Am I not using them correctly?

They are totally worthy. They are basically your anti air / anti large option. Canons can also do it of course but at close range a volley of iron hail gunners is worth 3k dammages. And canons have fire damages which means they will bounce on some units like dragon princes or phoenix.

For only 500 gold these guys can rake an insane value. In PvP mines are often dealing 1k or 2k value. Do note they require a bit of micro and to use the terrain properly (use the high ground !).

Crossbowmen are easier to play, however due to how they fire and their lack of AP damages they can't be used against everything. Like any big flying monster, or heavily armored cavalry.