Needed Updates: Undead Races

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Sorry it's so long guys, please bear with me with reading it all.

I wanted to make a couple threads about the various undead races, but I realized that I could possibly put them all into one instead.

I think that the big opportunity for the undead races will most likely come when they add Nagash to Warhammer 3.

But I don't want this introduction to get too long, so I'll just get into and starting talking about some of the features and additions they should add to the three existing undead races in a major update.


Now, I'm just going to list off a couple of smaller things I would really like to see CA add in to the races, as there's a certain part of it that I really want to see get majorly reworked, which will be the meat of this thread's OP.


"Minor" Reworks and Additions

All Vampire and "Crypt" VCount units be changed to no longer have the crumbling effect that most animated undead units have.
Additional units be given to the Tomb Kings to flesh out their roster a bit more.
The basic Strigoi Ghoul King should be turned into a Strigoi Vampire hero instead of a lord.
A mechanic or system that ties the undead factions to Nagash, except for Settra of course.


Majorly Reworked Bloodline System
Now this is something I'm truly excited to talk about.

I think that the thing I most wish for CA to do is to rework the vampire bloodlines from just some mechanic into their own proper sub factions, led by their respective founder, as well as some new or reworked units be given to each faction's roster.

I would like to see the bloodline system as it is remain and act as a sort of "mercenary general" type of mechanic, where you could spend blood kisses or whatever to purchase the services of a generic lord from a particular bloodline, and even gain some limited access to a few units from their particular roster.

But VERY importantly, it should work by taking away the option for a faction's particular bloodline lord, as that's the bloodline their from, but instead, have there be the Vampire Coast Lord lord option.

Now, I know that the Vampire Coast vampires aren't exactly a bloodline of their own, but I do think that they could certainly work as mercenaries for the Vampire Count factions, but maybe their price is in gold rather than blood. And I just think that part of their limited units could be some much needed artillery and gun zombies for VCount armies.

But either way, I'd really like to see the different bloodlines feel like they have practically unlimited access to their own respective units and characters, as well as having sort of different playstyles for how you'd want to build their armies.


I'd like to see there be a focus on very elite vampire units for the Blood Dragon faction. with most of their unique units only having similar numbers to the Norscan Skin Wolves, but are near hero levels of combat skill.

I would think that the Blood Dragon units should have a special mechanic that on the surface would seem like the Greenskin's scrap upgrades mechanic, but would allow them to switch between different weapon types, but only once per turn, to show their mastery of all sorts of weapons.

Or it could just be like a very, VERY basic version of the Daemon Prince customization, but only allowing the units to switch between weapon types, while any helmets and armor would really just be aesthetic.


The Strigoi faction should have some unique technologies or yellow skill trees that really buff the crypt ghoul and monster units, but specific something that buffs the AP damage of ghoul units, not really making them super AP units, but at least not weak vs armor.

I would think that they should also create a Strigoi vampire unit, not too dissimilar to the Blood Dragon units, but maybe act as a semi monstrous infantry that have several regenerative abilities while in melee. But I would also like to see the Strigoi faction be able to recruit Mournguls as well as some more specialized ghoul units.


I think that the Necrachs should be very powerful wizards and all, but I would think that one thing they could be able to do, if the lord is high enough in level, is to either pump magic into most units in their to give them undead regeneration or they should be able to activate a powerful ability that greatly regenerates their units, to show their mastery over necromancy.

I would think it could be cool if they made a Necrach Vampire unit that acted more like what I hope they make the Chosen of Tzeentch, being fairly small units of mages that are also pretty good in melee.


I don't really know exactly what they could do for the Lahmian or Von Carstien aside from maybe the Lahmians having some mechanics and such that factor into their manipulative nature of turning factions against each other and all that sort of stuff.


Now, I'm sorry to all the Tomb King fans out there for not talking about them too much, but I do think that in some ways, all they really need is some nice new units and maybe a few LLs and LHs as well to really spice them up. But we can always talk about them in future comments.


But what do you guys think of at least my reworked bloodlines idea?

What kind of stuff would you like to see be added or reworked about the Vampire Counts, Coast, and Tomb Kings?

I look forward to your comments and ideas.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sn3z:

Its the vcounts which need more units, vampire need nurgles type of slow moving units for its early game which in essence replace zombies and a slower counterpart to crypt horrors.

I honestly think that they should make zombies more useful, but I think that one of the only ways they could do that would be to increase their numbers to 240 guys per unit or so they could truly be that tar pit unit that is able to be thrown away all the time.

Because I don't really want to see the VCounts just copy other races either, but feel like they do what they do, just in more ways within their race.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez cb4n28:

I agree about the crypt ghouls and crypt horrors losing the crumbling mechanic.

That's been bugging me since the first game

Yeah, I always thought that having ALL the units in the roster crumble was pretty dumb as well.

[cb4n28]

Początkowo opublikowane przez chubbyninja89 (TNB):

Początkowo opublikowane przez cb4n28:

I agree about the crypt ghouls and crypt horrors losing the crumbling mechanic.

That's been bugging me since the first game

Yeah, I always thought that having ALL the units in the roster crumble was pretty dumb as well.

I remember way back in the days of the first game we were all speculating that it might be a limit of the engine or something. Like they could only give armies routing or crumbling, not a mix

Then in game two we got Sartosan Free Company and Sylvanian Crossbowmen and so on and it became clear that wasn't the case or something had changed.

Since then, crypt ghouls have needed a fix

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ashardalon:

not crumbling for crypt gouls and bigger crypt gouls makes sense
necromancers too, usually, depends how far gone they are

vampires im not sure
in a desperate moment on the battlefield they can draw too much on the magic keeping them together, in their attempts to keep their minions walking and winning the battle they can forget themself and push it beyond return
its rare that it goes so far that they actually die from it, but reduced to a mindless beast rushing towards anything moving desperate for blood is not uncommon

simply removing crumbling would be too far, it should probably be replaced by something

Well, I think that it's kind of depending on whether or not they're a caster and all that.

I mean, vampires aren't exactly the same sort of undead as the zombies and such that are being animated and all that. So I think that it's fair that they don't crumble, as under most circumstances, the vampires in the game wouldn't really be starved of blood and all that.

I mean, for the Strigoi or Blood Dragons, they shouldn't really even be casters to begin with, so they and their bloodline vampire units shouldn't really be effected by overuse or anything of magic either.

I just really want factions like the Blood Dragons or Strigoi to not be held back by stuff like crumbling of their vampire units and all that.

[Ashardalon]

by that argument the strigoi and blood dragons also shouldnt lead any armys
else who is animating them

[Sn3z]

Początkowo opublikowane przez chubbyninja89 (TNB):

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sn3z:

Its the vcounts which need more units, vampire need nurgles type of slow moving units for its early game which in essence replace zombies and a slower counterpart to crypt horrors.

I honestly think that they should make zombies more useful, but I think that one of the only ways they could do that would be to increase their numbers to 240 guys per unit or so they could truly be that tar pit unit that is able to be thrown away all the time.

Because I don't really want to see the VCounts just copy other races either, but feel like they do what they do, just in more ways within their race.

Well the zombies would just get a high tier counterpart, thats how these things are done aunit which does their tarpit job sightly better, whatever the ghosts units are called and with other thematic units for a more slower but tanky type of playstyle. Vcounts have really slow units but they all fall off because the ever need for fast speed units arises. since they have no range.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez cb4n28:

I remember way back in the days of the first game we were all speculating that it might be a limit of the engine or something. Like they could only give armies routing or crumbling, not a mix

Then in game two we got Sartosan Free Company and Sylvanian Crossbowmen and so on and it became clear that wasn't the case or something had changed.

Since then, crypt ghouls have needed a fix

That's my point exactly!

I think that if they can add in some non crumbling units, they can and should change some units to simply not crumble, as it would not only make sense lorewise but also gameplay wise as well.

I just really want factions like the Blood Dragons and Strigoi to not have to solely rely on your standard undead and such to get the job done and be able to really change up how they build their armies.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ashardalon:

by that argument the strigoi and blood dragons also shouldnt lead any armys
else who is animating them

Well maybe, but let's just say they could keep the undead "recruit" animated but just don't buff them in a lot of ways or anything major like that.

[Ashardalon]

Początkowo opublikowane przez chubbyninja89 (TNB):

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ashardalon:

by that argument the strigoi and blood dragons also shouldnt lead any armys
else who is animating them

Well maybe, but let's just say they could keep the undead "recruit" animated but just don't buff them in a lot of ways or anything major like that.

but that would still be using magic, even just giving orders is magic when it comes to undead
also its not just spells that uses blood for vampires
blood is their form of carbs, by moving at superhuman speed they burn it, punching hard they use it, healing a wound they use it
after a blood dragon wins a duel, he will be hungry
not because of using spells but because of using his body that is both fuelled and kept intact by magic
yes remove crumbling from vampires, but you cant just take it away
replace it

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sn3z:

Well the zombies would just get a high tier counterpart, thats how these things are done aunit which does their tarpit job sightly better, whatever the ghosts units are called and with other thematic units for a more slower but tanky type of playstyle. Vcounts have really slow units but they all fall off because the ever need for fast speed units arises. since they have no range.

I do think that they could use those, I think, Spirit Hosts units as a sort of higher tier zombie tar pit unit.

And I think that that they could also have some faster option if they changed up and added in some new bloodline vampire units. I mean, I would think that units of Dismounted Blood Dragons should have between 35 and 40 speed, while the Strigoi should have a whopping 50.

I think that the vampire units could really add some versatility to the VCount factions as well as add a fair amount of options for how they play.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ashardalon:

but that would still be using magic, even just giving orders is magic when it comes to undead
also its not just spells that uses blood for vampires
blood is their form of carbs, by moving at superhuman speed they burn it, punching hard they use it, healing a wound they use it
after a blood dragon wins a duel, he will be hungry
not because of using spells but because of using his body that is both fuelled and kept intact by magic
yes remove crumbling from vampires, but you cant just take it away
replace it

Oh come on dude, quit trying to make mountains out of mole hills.

We don't NEED to have the vampires and such all act in a realistic way in this game.

I really just want to see the vampires not crumble as that would allow them to not rely solely on your more standard undead to get the job done, but could actually allow for bloodlines like the Blood Dragons and Strigoi to have different playstyles instead of just having it all be really superficial differences.

I want to see the Strigoi focus on leading hordes of monstrous units and ghouls in a frenzied charge into their enemies, while the Blood Dragons rely more on their martial skill to destroy their enemies.

[Ashardalon]

Początkowo opublikowane przez chubbyninja89 (TNB):

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ashardalon:

but that would still be using magic, even just giving orders is magic when it comes to undead
also its not just spells that uses blood for vampires
blood is their form of carbs, by moving at superhuman speed they burn it, punching hard they use it, healing a wound they use it
after a blood dragon wins a duel, he will be hungry
not because of using spells but because of using his body that is both fuelled and kept intact by magic
yes remove crumbling from vampires, but you cant just take it away
replace it

Oh come on dude, quit trying to make mountains out of mole hills.

We don't NEED to have the vampires and such all act in a realistic way in this game.

I really just want to see the vampires not crumble as that would allow them to not rely solely on your more standard undead to get the job done, but could actually allow for bloodlines like the Blood Dragons and Strigoi to have different playstyles instead of just having it all be really superficial differences.

I want to see the Strigoi focus on leading hordes of monstrous units and ghouls in a frenzied charge into their enemies, while the Blood Dragons rely more on their martial skill to destroy their enemies.

oh come on dude we dont NEED vampires to not crumble

you want vampires to follow lore more and not crumble
but then having them behave more like lore and use up their blood reserves in a stressfull battle and devolve into a blood hungry beast is too much

just like gouls should run away like the cowards they are as soon as their vampire overlord meets any resistance

no? the appeal to lore was just a superficial cover for asking for buffs?
guess ill just leave this conversation
sorry i thought there was actually an attempt at anything genuine
goodbye

[cb4n28]

Początkowo opublikowane przez chubbyninja89 (TNB):

Początkowo opublikowane przez cb4n28:

I remember way back in the days of the first game we were all speculating that it might be a limit of the engine or something. Like they could only give armies routing or crumbling, not a mix

Then in game two we got Sartosan Free Company and Sylvanian Crossbowmen and so on and it became clear that wasn't the case or something had changed.

Since then, crypt ghouls have needed a fix

That's my point exactly!

I think that if they can add in some non crumbling units, they can and should change some units to simply not crumble, as it would not only make sense lorewise but also gameplay wise as well.

I just really want factions like the Blood Dragons and Strigoi to not have to solely rely on your standard undead and such to get the job done and be able to really change up how they build their armies.

Yes, I think it might make a big difference for the viability of crypt ghouls in general. I'm less sure if it's necessary from a gameplay perspective for horrors, but I still think it should be done for lore reasons.

Basically they should both be tweaked so that, morale wise, they function like goblins and trolls do for Greenskins. They might not be the heaviest hitters or the tankiest tanks in their weight class, and they have poor morale and tend to break and run quickly, but the silver lining is that after they break and run, they frequently end up behind enemy lines and are set up perfectly for a rear charge when they regain their courage. An unwary general who thinks they are out of the fight is often in for a nasty surprise.

It would be a new dynamic for Counts and could give the ghouls in particular more utility in the early to mid game

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ashardalon:

oh come on dude we dont NEED vampires to not crumble

you want vampires to follow lore more and not crumble
but then having them behave more like lore and use up their blood reserves in a stressfull battle and devolve into a blood hungry beast is too much

just like gouls should run away like the cowards they are as soon as their vampire overlord meets any resistance

no? the appeal to lore was just a superficial cover for asking for buffs?
guess ill just leave this conversation
sorry i thought there was actually an attempt at anything genuine
goodbye

Dude, quit acting childishly about this.

I am genuine about what I want, so don't go assuming that I'm not.

The game doesn't have to be 110% lore accurate to be good.


The vampires shouldn't crumble like they don't in the lore, but they shouldn't just have some ridiculous over complicated thing added in just to replace it. They should just get tired and such like other units, but maybe at a slower rate, as they are supposed to be rather powerful creatures in their own rights.

I mean, if you lose a battle as the VCounts, many of your units will most likely all have died to a man, so it's kind of understandable that some of us don't just want our elite vampire units that we spent tons of time getting to just die so quickly.

What I've pointed out with this was that the vampires not crumbling would allow you to not have to worry about your rarer more powerful units for factions like the Strigoi or Blood Dragons all completely dying just because a single battle goes against you.

The point is that the Vampires should have pretty high leadership and all so that they can do lots of damage but be smart enough to know when to run away from a battle.

And I really just want the bloodline factions to actually have different playstyles beyond just color changes.

[chubbyninja89 (TNB)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez cb4n28:

Yes, I think it might make a big difference for the viability of crypt ghouls in general. I'm less sure if it's necessary from a gameplay perspective for horrors, but I still think it should be done for lore reasons.

Basically they should both be tweaked so that, morale wise, they function like goblins and trolls do for Greenskins. They might not be the heaviest hitters or the tankiest tanks in their weight class, and they have poor morale and tend to break and run quickly, but the silver lining is that after they break and run, they frequently end up behind enemy lines and are set up perfectly for a rear charge when they regain their courage. An unwary general who thinks they are out of the fight is often in for a nasty surprise.

It would be a new dynamic for Counts and could give the ghouls in particular more utility in the early to mid game

That's understandable.

I think that such things should be done for loreful reason, but also for gameplay as well.

I really almost want to see the red line skills be reworked for each bloodline lords to reflect their particular playstyles. Or at least their yellow line skills anyway.

I want to see the Strigoi turn things like Crypt Ghouls and Horrors and other such monstrous stuff into a frenzied horde of destruction that can sweep away their enemies with lightning assaults and such tactics.

I want to see the Blood Dragons focus more on their, well, blood dragon units and making them all the deadlier through their skill trees, with their standard undead being little more than meat shields to hold the line while they do most of the proper work.

I would like to see the Necrachs be able to not simply use their magic to attack, but also be able to not only turn most of their standard undead unbreakable but also massively regen with a few abilities as well.

I really want to see the Necrach lords at least be able to unleash a powerful ability that massively regenerates all the units in their armies, but maybe at the cost of magic or something.

I'm not really sure how the Von Carstiens or the Lahmians would make their armies and such, but I'm sure CA could figure something out for them.