Keeper of Secrets Is Woefully Underwhelming

[Aluminum Elite Master]

Okay, let's talk about the Keeper of Secrets for Slaanesh:

Costs the same as Great Unclean One and Lord of Change, IIRC. But has less armor, and less health, than either of the two. And okay, cool, the Keeper has 20% physical resistance, but so do the equivalent units for the other chaos factions, such as, again, Great Unclean One, etc.

Other than the doubled-charge buff for flanking/rear, what does the Keeper of Secrets actually benefit from that justifies having 5 armor and just 3,500-ish health?

Honestly, the Keeper of Secrets needs a slight bit more armor in the very least. It's ridiculous how quickly it takes damage a lot of the time, and against Tzeentch in particular, those magic ranged attacks just melt the Keeper. But even against just massed T1 infantry, it doesn't stand up long at all... a 20% cut to physical damage is nice, but if it's lots of paper-cut attacks rather than chunk damage, it doesn't help as much as one might think.

Maybe I am missing something, but is there some niche use for the Keeper of Secrets? Even the spells aren't important since you can just bring heroes for that function, and those heroes sometimes have other useful abilities as well.

[Levie]

I’ve found the key to be the passive healing ability you can get them very early on.

[Conflagration]

You know, some units aren't designed to be chucked in combat and left alone. KoS are extremely fast - you're supposed to make use of their speed and not just abandon them and then wonder why they die. That goes for all Slaanesh units. Hit and run, not stand and fight.

[Aluminum Elite Master]

Originally posted by Obsidian:

You know, some units aren't designed to be chucked in combat and left alone. KoS are extremely fast - you're supposed to make use of their speed and not just abandon them and then wonder why they die. That goes for all Slaanesh units. Hit and run, not stand and fight.

I agree and disagree, though.

They seem to not pull out of combat well... I'd rather use the Slaanesh cav than the Keeper of Secrets, because the Keeper doesn't cycle charge well when it keeps getting stuck on just a few models of some enemy units.

I mean, I get it, it's supposed to be used with that double-charge boost and not just left in combat. Issue is, it tends to get stuck and need move commands to be spammed, and even then it seems to bog down. Whereas the chariots just plow right through, and the cav pulls away once the stuck model or two dies off, the Keeper meanwhile bogs down and doesn't have the stats to sit in that position for long at all.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Aluminum Elite Master:

Originally posted by Obsidian:

You know, some units aren't designed to be chucked in combat and left alone. KoS are extremely fast - you're supposed to make use of their speed and not just abandon them and then wonder why they die. That goes for all Slaanesh units. Hit and run, not stand and fight.

I agree and disagree, though.

They seem to not pull out of combat well... I'd rather use the Slaanesh cav than the Keeper of Secrets, because the Keeper doesn't cycle charge well when it keeps getting stuck on just a few models of some enemy units.

I mean, I get it, it's supposed to be used with that double-charge boost and not just left in combat. Issue is, it tends to get stuck and need move commands to be spammed, and even then it seems to bog down. Whereas the chariots just plow right through, and the cav pulls away once the stuck model or two dies off, the Keeper meanwhile bogs down and doesn't have the stats to sit in that position for long at all.

You are not supposed to "pull them out of combat". When you charge in against your targets, your goal is to deal so much shock damage that they terror-route quickly.
Slaanesh has so much speed and burst damage that they can pick apart most forces this way.

If your KoS still gets bogged down, you can use a spell, like the Lash of Slaanesh that they have themselves, to clear some space.

A thing about KoS that people tend to forget, is that their speed is ground speed. Units like Bloodthirsters have similar speed in the air, but once they land it is cut in half or something like that(the stat card does not show this).
KoS is always at full speed.

All that being said, I do prefer the Slaanesh Soulgrinder over the KoS. KoS provides spells and can be upgraded a fair bit, but they dont really add anything that other parts of your army cant do(spell casting from your lord and heroes, Terror from Lord or Soulgrinder), while the Soulgrinder has good armor which is pretty unique for the army.

[matlajs]

As Turin said in some of his recent videos for mp balance thoughts, I agree with him that they should bring back bound spells casted for free.

Also that is what I am talking about about CA unnecessarily push themselves back by not synchronising the numbers right from the bat.

Look at all great monsters from previous games, and actually all single entities and characters getting native missile dmg reduction between 10-30%. Here? None. Not even whirling blades or such traits No.

[Aluminum Elite Master]

I get one or two of the points above.

But like matlajs points out, it's not a free spell cast on the Keeper itself, and I also am using spells for N'Kari to move around and break free.

But really, it is that you do need to get them out of combat not long after the charge. Even without battle difficulty being raised, on VH and L campaign difficulty, the enemy units often are vetted up and do not break easily. Worse, against Kislev, those units that get near breaking have an ability that basically blocks it for 30 seconds. In the meanwhile, a Keeper of Secrets is somewhat in trouble if they charged in and got themselves surrounded.

My overall point is that KoS just has no real utility for me when I play Slaanesh. Soul Grinders can stay in melee longer and are just hardier in general due to having 90 armor. And the Slaanesh chariots blast right through enemy units when they charge and don't get stuck.

I do get the point about KoS vs Bloodthirster, though. That might be one of the few times they do hold a decent advantage over an equivalent unit, because right, the Bloodthirster when grounded is moving at not nearly the speed as in flight.

But overall, for the price, the Keeper looks like it under-performs by a noticeable amount compared to *most* equivalent units in the other chaos factions.

[SBA77]

Originally posted by Obsidian:

You know, some units aren't designed to be chucked in combat and left alone. KoS are extremely fast - you're supposed to make use of their speed and not just abandon them and then wonder why they die. That goes for all Slaanesh units. Hit and run, not stand and fight.

Perhaps that's a little too much specialization, and by that I mean for the whole faction.

[matlajs]

Originally posted by SBA77:

Originally posted by Obsidian:

You know, some units aren't designed to be chucked in combat and left alone. KoS are extremely fast - you're supposed to make use of their speed and not just abandon them and then wonder why they die. That goes for all Slaanesh units. Hit and run, not stand and fight.

Perhaps that's a little too much specialization, and by that I mean for the whole faction.

Just my thought, but is here someone else who also thinks, that infantry charge even using its devastating charger don't deliver appropriate punch like it should. Like their charge animation isn't THAT fierce like it could be. And it still seems to me, that countercharging units deal way too much damage against heavier units.

Like my point is, that such a faction without staying power relying mostly on cycle-charging while having only fragile chaff to hold on the line, still need a bit more polishing.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by matlajs:

Originally posted by SBA77:

Perhaps that's a little too much specialization, and by that I mean for the whole faction.

Just my thought, but is here someone else who also thinks, that infantry charge even using its devastating charger don't deliver appropriate punch like it should. Like their charge animation isn't THAT fierce like it could be. And it still seems to me, that countercharging units deal way too much damage against heavier units.

Like my point is, that such a faction without staying power relying mostly on cycle-charging while having only fragile chaff to hold on the line, still need a bit more polishing.

Right now impact damage is kinda broken. Horse cav tend to just throw away enemy units but do 0 damage to them.

About Slaanesh - they are just meh imho. With hit n run tactic Tzeench is like 50 times better. Becouse Theench can charge and pull back with 0 hp lose.
Yes. you can play Slaanesh by forcing braindead AI to split forces and killing isolated units. But it is so slow and boring

Slaanesh has hammers but no anvils. Where are warriors of slaanesh and chosen.

[Delirio]

I completed a playthrough as N'kari and she suffers from the same problem as all other units of the roster i.e. super low armor. But Slaneesh still rocks thanks to amazing speed.

If you micro the Keeper properly she is will rapidly delete any high value targets with her sick combat moves and very strong buffs/debuffs. You can't just throw her in like Skarbrand though or focus fire will wear it down.

As for anvils....Slaneesh marauders with whips are and absolute rubber wall and will soak pretty much anything thrown at them for a long time, giving time to demonettes and seekers to flank and counter charge.

I like playing as Slaneesh even tho rushing the enemy is pretty much the only strategy available.

[matlajs]

I think Skarbrand himself at least, is the idol how it should be done. he still send fly everything around him, yet he still inflict damage before animation. Most noticeable when fighting single characters. Where N'Kari can't even properly charge because of his animation, and half of his attacks go waste because he rather kick of small entities, dancing around.

That, however it can seems to be irelevant to this topic, is rather most important because working animations help to deal with targets much faster. And this was an issue for almost every single entity back in ME.

Not sure if it is also an issue for KoS, but his damage and speed don't compensate for his weaknesess, also he is much bigger target than soulgrinder. As i said, my 2 cent on it is, they should bring back bound spells further improved by those techs, because right now those techs are one of the worst in the game( for all 4 demons) - for slasnesh twice as much as his techs don't come with minor bonuses, where at least nurgle gets some bonuses % for spreading.

[SpeaksTooFast]

I have not been able to get into Slaneeesh because at least early game you just take so much damage and have no good way to recover it.

It's cool that half their roster hits so hard but in campaign play you need to be able to fight battles back to back and without any healing/regen/high replenishment or a good tank you need to dance around the enemy for a few min before you even get a good hit in.

The Keeper of Secrets does nothing to help this issue and seems to exemplify the faction weakness more than the strengths.

[matlajs]

Originally posted by SpeaksTooFast:

I have not been able to get into Slaneeesh because at least early game you just take so much damage and have no good way to recover it.

It's cool that half their roster hits so hard but in campaign play you need to be able to fight battles back to back and without any healing/regen/high replenishment or a good tank you need to dance around the enemy for a few min before you even get a good hit in.

My thought is, that he is still reasonably playable( can still play into his advantages) , because everyone is sort of short on units and strategies, but Dany, and old factions don't play anywhere near their full potential. I think, that charge bonus, which they capitalise on mostly + speed, are rather secondary important atributes. i think it is hard to find a good spot for balancing charge bonus to not become OP or UP. So they either need polish it further or freshen their roster by few more units. In the end possibly both, but at least one of those before IE comes into play.

[redsky1335]

Can't stand playing as Slaanesh right now. The collision detection problems are too much as it is- Slaaneshi factions are so dependent on chariots and hard cavalry cycle charging, that if they don't work properly, you'll lose very expensive units.

There are a lot of clips on youtube that display what I'm talking about. It doesn't seem to be limited to Slaanesh cavalry/chariots, but it appears that they have the worst charge/collision detection out of all of them... which is kind of funny, since it is LITERALLY THEIR GREATEST STRENGTH.

This would be like... Tzeentch spells not working. Or Khorne soldiers missing melee attacks 50% of the time for no reason. I cannot believe this wasn't addressed in the "major patch". I recall the patch notes claiming this was fixed, but I've seen people posting evidence that it was not.

[SpeaksTooFast]

Originally posted by redsky1335:

There are a lot of clips on youtube that display what I'm talking about.

Is the material you are referencing is all post 1.1? I am honestly curious as collision issues seemed to improve but I have not done any measure of extensive testing.