Ogre kingdoms. Awful faction with awesome units.

[Maximum997]

Their units are just super duper strong, some of them even OPAF.

But faction mechanics...

1) Contracts.
Should i explain why 500 gold for killing a guy half map away is not good? I did it once and just ignored them for the rest of the game.
2) Camps.
They are just cities that you can place where you want. But you should pay for garrison, they are absurdly expensive to upgrade, and you should always start them from t1. And after defeat you cant rebuild them like average city, all your investments just gone. You cant just occupie t4 city like other races, you should build it from t1, and it is damn slow and expensive. So after some expanding you will found that your t5 camp is miles away from your position and you need tons of money and time to build another one.
3) Meat. 99% of time i forget that it exists. I just update +20% movement bonus every 10 turns and thats all.
4) Tech three.
It is just garbage. All technologies are trash minor bonuses. 5% money from contracts? WOW it is 525 instead of 25. Only good technologies are camp limit and -50% gnollbar upkeep that makes them free in camps.
5) Lords. Unit bonuses are just meh. Like 14 armor and charge bonus for gorgers is pretty much nothing. As LL you have slow fatas and awful mage that does pretty much nothing cool. With 100 wom limit i say good by to lore of maw.
6) Magic. Lore of great maw is crap. You have heals, you have damage, you have buffs debuffs. Cool. But OMG all magic is so overpriced.
7) Heroes. Mages have no armor, no fast mounts. Compare them to vampires or scink priests. Mages are crap. Atlest they have lore of fire.
Hunters are good. Ranged atacks, awesome mounts and good bonuses.
8) Sieges. They have no walled settlements? and It is good. But why they start with 0 supplies? Or other races start with 1000.
9) Their ecomony is kinda crap. 2000 from t5 camp, 150 from city. +trading. Looks not so good.

So i think their units should be nerfed and some mechanics should be buffed.

[Gamefever]

Played most of the factions so far but none of them to completion.

Ogre's are pretty strong faction and both of the Legendary Lords are pretty good, although certainly not the best LL's in this game. These are not Bloodthirsters or major combat Lords though....They do fine in combat though just not the best at it.

Strongest LL is prob the Khorne, also probably the easiest faction to play in the game right now. Skarbrand is far better in hand to hand than anything else in the game for obvious reason he is a Bloodthrister although he does better with leadership immunity than people probably realize cause if his leadership goes to crap in a fight he will get gibbed.

Orge Hunter hero makes all other hero's in Ogre army look bad.
He is just insanely good and has loads of build options that matter right away even as a map hero is stupid good.

Ogre Butcher has a problem its not that he is bad in hand to hand although he does fine if he has support in HTH, just that the Ogre Hunter does it better. Ogre Butcher is needed for replenishment ability and is made better by adding magic which gets good late in levels meaning he has to be developed far longer than the Ogre Hero who starts shining right out of the box at level 1!

Ogre Hunter can actually vangaurd right away with support from other units in just a 2 or 3 levels! AND do it well! Later gets stupidly powerful mount for more laughs an shinagans.

Technology is all over the place for the most part there are techs that super matter but not all players agree because they value other types of things more over what I might see as very useful.

Economy is complained about for all factions, players still not learning to take the fight to the enemy territory and sacking everything in sight. Too many players wanting to control everything they conquer rather than just sacking it moving on to the next conquest, which builds up your gold stockpile super fast. You only need like 3 or 4 provinces and only need 1 army to cover that many...Your other 2 or 3 armies could be out there rampaging the entire world making you bank and destroying your enemies. I'm sitting on about 400,000 gold by turn 80-100 easy and my complaint is that it takes 4 or 5 turns to churn out better units cause all my armies are busy getting it done out there.

I like the Camps idea, I dont like each one of them starting at level 1 building all the time, maybe in the future there will be a tech to make them start at higher level.
But its pretty cool that you get your own settlement building that you can place anywhere on the map not a bad idea that.

The EXTREMELY nice thing about Ogre Camps....
IF you practice a sacking policy while your Ogre Camp is building up you can possibly get some nice units later cause you can spend a lot of turns just sacking the whole region while the camp is building up. Tricky thing is that enemy wants to attack your Ogre Camp so at least there will be a lot of armies feeding you gold all the time while your main army can be out sacking all there stuff and come back in the future for better units "maybe" cause most of the time these camps take far too long to build up >< aaaaghhh so it does not really work out that well.
There is nothing stopping a player from having the 4 corners of the map being used this way though or several major intersections or area's of the world map in this way!
Make a lot of gold this way.

[Panfilo]

There is a tech that makes camps start with 2 pop which is a nice head start. You can either immediately upgrade it to T2 or build two buildings.

[Cacomistle]

In terms of raw power, I think ogres are fine.

In terms of how fun their faction mechanics are to use, I an somewhat see it.

Using your numbers:

1: yeah contracts are kind of pointless. It doesn't make the faction worse, cause its just an extra thing, but it might as well not exist.

2: Camps are ok. They're expensive, but they're pretty valuable. If you put them somewhere safe, you don't really need a garrison for them so they don't cost much. If you put them somewhere lose to the front line, you can recruit units in the camp for the lower upkeep and then just transfer them to lords when you're ready to conquer that area. I think they're a good mechanic, but its stupid how much you have to pay for higher tier units. Ogre bulls are like actually fine enough for most stuff (the +10 melee attack from the buff to the maw makes them actually very good glass cannon units), so it already feels like I'm building higher tier units just for the flavor. When I have to pay 80k or something insane like that (most of the T5 buildings seemed to be 16k per) just to unlock those higher tier units, it feels like utter garbage.

3: I think there's a lot of mechanics like meat where they're just a minor help to your campaign that doesn't really require a bunch of decision making. I do think several of them are good though. The +melee attack is actually super good for when you don't just have easy fights. The -1 global recruitment is one of those convenience things that's really nice when you just want to get fun units faster (but realistically I think its better to just wipe everything with +10 melee attack ogre bulls and then just recruit your army of gorgers at home).

4: the tech tree isn't super great. I think getting extra camps gives you decently more power though, and you do get casualty replenishment and some bonuses to core units. Its not that bad. Honestly I kind of like it more than say the high elves. Playing with "+10% reload +20% damge +20% ammo +13/13 ma/md somehow +20% more reload +200 insta win with 0 skill factor" archers before turn 20 gets old after like 2 battles, let alone a full campaign. Most of the tech trees in this game have been scaled down from that though, so ogres don't really seem too bad. I think Slaanesh and Cathay are the garbage ones personally.

5: Idk about lord specific buffs, but ogre units are just insane already. Then they get the maw bonuses on top. Gorgers don't need to be stronger. If they're that absurdly powerful without powerful red skills, then ♥♥♥♥ it just leave them that way.

6: I think trollguts specifially is underwhelming. I'm used to healing spells being op, and trollguts is like actually pretty awful. The rest of the lore is alright enough, although I do prefer beasts. Flock of doom seems better than the fist thing or the maw thing at wiping out hordes, and I'd rather just summon a manticore vs single targets than buff my units.

7: Their mages are super good imo. If you compare them to the standard wizard who can't fight for ♥♥♥♥ on a horse, they're not much slower, way better in melee combat, and offer a bunch of army regeneration on top of that, and I think ability they get at the end of their tree is better than arcane conduit cause it can actually generate more winds instead of just going through your reserve faster. Even compared to vampire heroes (who I think are some of the best wizards heroes in the game because they're quite strong in melee), I think they're better. Vamp heroes can't use vampire counts best lore, and I'm pretty sure they'd lose in a fight to butchers unless they were in isabella's army.

8: They do suck in defensive sieges. I'm not a fan of sieges regardless though so I don't care. I'd almost rather auto resolve and lose the settlement than play a defensive siege.

9: Their economy is fine. They're very good tall (cause they don't need to increase settlement count for camps). They're ok wide. Early game, they can get a couple camps for pretty easy extra income not tied to their expansion. Late game, its pretty costly, but the main camp buildings give % bonus income to settlement buildings, so your settlements can start giving like +100% income from their baseline, which makes them worth it even at that ridiculous 4k cost when the income building will only increase by 50.


SO OVERALL CONCLUSION.

I'm kind of with you. I don't think I'd buff their actual mechanics, I'd lower their building income costs. Right now it feels like such a ridiculous waste of money to go for anything other than ogre bulls (because they're cheap and effective with the +10 ma) and gorgers when you get them (because they're obscenely op). I guess you can get like maneaters or ironguts without paying tons of money, but they feel overkill and leveling up settlements to level 3 feels not worth the money early.

I wouldn't buff the mechanics they get to buff their units, because their armies are strong enough already with what they have. I took skrag with a 15 stack (where I hadn't added anything but ogre bulls to his starting army) and I close victoried a rogue army doomstack full of stuff like single entity monsters. Not because I did anything tactical (even auto resolve said I would pyrrhic victory despite how much weaker my army was in the actual battle's balance of power bar, and I tend not to try very hard when auto resolve says I'll win), but because my ogre bulls with like 60 melee attack or something obsene like that just actually beat stuff like hell pit abominations. And that's not even the gorgers (who rarely drop more than 1 model in a fight).

[t]

I mean, ogres are not really known for nation building, so economic prowess is not going to be one of their strong suites.
My problem with Ogres is that they should have had their own narrative that was separate from the Realms of Chaos, like how the Tomb Kings and Vampire coast were separate from the Vortex.

[Merek Grimaldus]

ya contracts are SUPERRRR underwhelming, the risk vs reward is a no brainer, i too skipped it.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by panda_express411:

I mean, ogres are not really known for nation building, so economic prowess is not going to be one of their strong suites.
My problem with Ogres is that they should have had their own narrative that was separate from the Realms of Chaos, like how the Tomb Kings and Vampire coast were separate from the Vortex.

Yea. It is true.

[zacharyb]

Tbh I feel like it'd have made more sense for Ogre Camps to work like the Vampire Coast ships/boat camp things, where the LL's and special Lords from Research have their own Camp that travels with them. Though if they did work like that they'd definitely have to be rebalanced a tad.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by zacharyb:

Tbh I feel like it'd have made more sense for Ogre Camps to work like the Vampire Coast ships/boat camp things, where the LL's and special Lords from Research have their own Camp that travels with them. Though if they did work like that they'd definitely have to be rebalanced a tad.

Right now they are basicaly just black arcs. But stationary on the land.

Worst things about camps:
1) You can treposition them
2) You should start in from t1

[Lotor13]

Originally posted by Sn3z:

Played OK for about one hour gnoblars shouldn't cost food upkeep or half if its messing with the balance.

+1

[zacharyb]

Originally posted by maximum997:

Originally posted by zacharyb:

Tbh I feel like it'd have made more sense for Ogre Camps to work like the Vampire Coast ships/boat camp things, where the LL's and special Lords from Research have their own Camp that travels with them. Though if they did work like that they'd definitely have to be rebalanced a tad.

Right now they are basicaly just black arcs. But stationary on the land.

Worst things about camps:
1) You can treposition them
2) You should start in from t1

They do make for some pretty decent army blockers when used in mountain passes though, being able to prevent enemy armies from moving deeper into your territory with an unmoving inexpensive high tier army that also pays for itself is pretty great.

[zacharyb]

Originally posted by karoten2:

Originally posted by Sn3z:

Played OK for about one hour gnoblars shouldn't cost food upkeep or half if its messing with the balance.

+1

Ya with how they are now there isn't really much reason to use Gnoblars unless you really need the money, or I guess against some ranged heavy factions some meatshields might be useful.

[SBA77]

Originally posted by ▼:

Honestly..All tech trees are underperforming at the current states. they went all the way back to wh1 tech

Yeah I heard about that too. Hopefully they get their ♥♥♥♥ together. This release was not
as awful as many others games recently but it's still pretty bad and shouldn't be acceptable.

[Empukris]

The only races where I feel their technology is fine is probably only Khorne that is mainly they dont have that stupid magic upgrade for your demon, they will probably make it a bound spell which make them OP or rework it. The worst one is definitely tzeentch dozen of completely useless techs that I dont even know why they are there.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by SBA77:

Originally posted by ▼:

Honestly..All tech trees are underperforming at the current states. they went all the way back to wh1 tech

Yeah I heard about that too. Hopefully they get their ♥♥♥♥ together. This release was not
as awful as many others games recently but it's still pretty bad and shouldn't be acceptable.

Magic was nerfed
Traits was nerfed
Pretty much everything was nerfed.

May be this is the new trend. WH2 had tons of over the top things, races, lords and mechanics. It wasnt balanced, but it made game more fun. For example Ikit was absurdly strong and OPAF but damn he was fun to play

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by zacharyb:

Originally posted by karoten2:

+1

Ya with how they are now there isn't really much reason to use Gnoblars unless you really need the money, or I guess against some ranged heavy factions some meatshields might be useful.

In early game they are pretty good to to take enemy major cities just with stealth caping both victory points
But i agree. Gnolbars should be big part of ogre armies.

Originally posted by SBA77:

Originally posted by ▼:

Honestly..All tech trees are underperforming at the current states. they went all the way back to wh1 tech

Yeah I heard about that too. Hopefully they get their ♥♥♥♥ together. This release was not
as awful as many others games recently but it's still pretty bad and shouldn't be acceptable.

Magic was nerfed
Traits was nerfed
Pretty much everything was nerfed.

May be this is the new trend. WH2 had tons of over the top things, races, lords and mechanics. It wasnt balanced, but it made game more fun. For example Ikit was absurdly strong and OPAF but damn he was fun to play