Ogre kingdoms. Awful faction with awesome units.

[Maximum997]

Their units are just super duper strong, some of them even OPAF.

But faction mechanics...

1) Contracts.
Should i explain why 500 gold for killing a guy half map away is not good? I did it once and just ignored them for the rest of the game.
2) Camps.
They are just cities that you can place where you want. But you should pay for garrison, they are absurdly expensive to upgrade, and you should always start them from t1. And after defeat you cant rebuild them like average city, all your investments just gone. You cant just occupie t4 city like other races, you should build it from t1, and it is damn slow and expensive. So after some expanding you will found that your t5 camp is miles away from your position and you need tons of money and time to build another one.
3) Meat. 99% of time i forget that it exists. I just update +20% movement bonus every 10 turns and thats all.
4) Tech three.
It is just garbage. All technologies are trash minor bonuses. 5% money from contracts? WOW it is 525 instead of 25. Only good technologies are camp limit and -50% gnollbar upkeep that makes them free in camps.
5) Lords. Unit bonuses are just meh. Like 14 armor and charge bonus for gorgers is pretty much nothing. As LL you have slow fatas and awful mage that does pretty much nothing cool. With 100 wom limit i say good by to lore of maw.
6) Magic. Lore of great maw is crap. You have heals, you have damage, you have buffs debuffs. Cool. But OMG all magic is so overpriced.
7) Heroes. Mages have no armor, no fast mounts. Compare them to vampires or scink priests. Mages are crap. Atlest they have lore of fire.
Hunters are good. Ranged atacks, awesome mounts and good bonuses.
8) Sieges. They have no walled settlements? and It is good. But why they start with 0 supplies? Or other races start with 1000.
9) Their ecomony is kinda crap. 2000 from t5 camp, 150 from city. +trading. Looks not so good.

So i think their units should be nerfed and some mechanics should be buffed.

[▼]

Honestly..All tech trees are underperforming at the current states. they went all the way back to wh1 tech

[Torrens]

The thing that grinds my gears about ogre camps is how the garrisons won't replenish on enemy territory. It completely works against the idea of having this raiding settlement behind enemy lines. My army can replenish in the circle of influence but the garrison can't? Why would I research a tech which improves camp growth by 40 when in hostile territory if it can't replenish and stay alive?
It seems like the only viable way to build up camps are to set them up deep inside friendly territory where they are always safe because then the garrison can replenish losses and defend itself. So while having this "unique" camp mechanic ogres end up expanding the same way as any other faction anyway.
Other than that I love Ogres.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by Torrens:

It seems like the only viable way to build up camps are to set them up deep inside friendly territory where they are always safe because then the garrison can replenish losses and defend itself. So while having this "unique" camp mechanic ogres end up expanding the same way as any other faction anyway.

Exactly. In enemy territory you can build empty camp for 2000, any investments imho worthless.

Originally posted by ▼:

Honestly..All tech trees are underperforming at the current states. they went all the way back to wh1 tech

Yea, i guess so. Kislev tech tree was kinda garbage too.

[Namhaid]

1) Agree, right now they are crap.
2) & 3) I actually like their mechanics, or at least the idea behind them, but I agree that they might need some tweaks.
4) This is true for most races, I think they wanted to roll back to technologies not being as crucial as they were for some WH2 factions and they overdid it a bit.
5) Personally, I'm not a Greasus fan, but that is just personal preference, on the battlefield I think they are fine.
6) "You have heals, you have damage, you have buffs debuffs." What more do you want? Ogres are not supposed to stand out for their magic, and they definetly don't need it in battle. They already have a huge advantage by being far less vulnerable to magic than most armies.
7) Their mages are still ogres that can take many enemy heroes on melee (and lore of fire is still great). It's true that there are not many options, but that's true for all races right now.
8) I guess they should start with the same as other races, overall I'm not a fan of how supplies work anyway (I do like the maps, I just don't like the supply mechanic), so I don't care too much.
9) They have a slow start, but they can make a lot from sacking, they are intended to play more like orcs (with the benefit that they can actually trade), raiding and sacking instead of from buildings like other races.

Overall I think the Ogres are pretty good, some of their campaign mechanics need a bit of fleshing out, but they are one of the strongest, if not the strongest, factions in battles.

[Sn3z]

Played OK for about one hour gnoblars shouldn't cost food upkeep or half if its messing with the balance.

[RamboRusina]

1) completely agree. It's essentially the Alith Anar mechanic from WH2 where you get contracts you have zero realistic incentive to go for. Basically it's even worse since at least in WH2 you had special heroes for them and prizes were better. I'm not entirely sure how the award is calculated, I'm guessing it's based on the faction economy who ordered it? Sometimes you get 20k for nothing while another contract is 5 times harder, more distance with some 1k reward. I don't hate the idea of the contracts, but the execution is just horrid.

2) IMO it's just more sluggish and in general worse horde faction mechanic. I'd rather not had that gimmick in the first place or go all in and not take regular(-ish) towns at all.

3) It's bit similar to Skaven. I rather like the idea of it, but it lacks the stick to drive you out for the meat. It gets bit washed up by getting towns and camps being able to chill so you are not raging out to get the meat.

4) From what I've seen and experienced it's general problem with the game. Very few techs feel like they are worth something. I truly wish they had gone with bigger bonuses than WH2 to make them impactful, but sadly they rather went down on those. I'd especially hope for more things that enhance abilities rather than the most boring +5 to stat X type things.

5) General problem with the game. I'm not sure if it's just the sluggish models in combat in general that cause it or did lords in general get nerfed? They don't feel anywhere near as impactful as in WH2 besides few exceptions like Cathay dragons. As personal preference I also liked the more specialized lords(which should've been taken even deeper from WH2) as opposed to the new ones that can learn it all essentially.

6&7) I honestly can't say much about this. I feel like Ogres were so dominant that you can pretty much right click to win the battles. Even spears in formation can't stand their ground. Small unit formations are just made out of paper that gets sent flying by smallest breeze of wind. As Ogres you right click, as humans you never leave forests against bigger units now.

9) You can stay in high deficit and still manage just fine. Ogres are so dominant that you can keep fighting nearly every turn for that gold. I can see this being problem if their battle prowess takes a hit with nerfs tho. But like I said I wasn't huge fan of ogres having towns in the first place. Either raze them or turn them into strange meat cattle farms rather than having them as ogre towns.

[matlajs]

All the races( played all of them except Cathay ) have a 90% of tech trees, skill trees absolutely boring and worthless to invest points in.

Ogre camp garrison can't heal - as Black arcs don't have any base replenishment on neutral/ hostile territory - it is definetely possible- but they won't do it for.....a reason? can't imagine what.

Building schemes are boring and trash - almost everything on T3- with exception of highest tier units, where last 2 tiers of building provide copy paste bonuses of + recruitment slot / rank.

some of the heroes back in wh2 have had option to perform more than 1 action while embeded in army( rune masters / most of legendary ones) - don't see any reason, why they didn't bothered apply that to this game until they add other heroes which will seize that role.

There is just so many copy paste things, without that much faction exclusive things when you look at it objectively.

So overall, not just the Ogres, even regardless of bugs and boring main campaign, i can't see any inventive progress up from wh2, rather degradation.
Addition of more mechanics to each race is perhaps good first stepp, but then again, they need to be not this bland and do almost the same, re-skinned thing.

[Jack Deth]

1.) Completely agree. Not just the piddly rewards but the diplomacy buffs. especially in this game where basically every minor faction gets steamrolled. Whats the point of getting a slight diplomacy buff for a minor faction that doesn't out up a fight, even worse it appears when you ally with them in any shape the AI goes full hog on them (meaning they die out even quicker).

2.) Camps are ok. I like the idea but they don't function the way they're intended. Right now the best way to use them is to stack as many in as few of your own provinces to blow up your income and to play guard duty for opposing forces and rifts while letting them sit in the camp when not needed for your secondary lords.

It really doesn't work near as well for it's supposed intended purpose and even then, it would just be easier to take the city or region than to set up a camp. (or to use that movement exploit with camps).

3.) Gnoblars shouldn't cost meat. Outside of that it's...ok but again with how the campaign is based around turtling, it really is a mechanic that mixes as well with the campaign as oil and water as you won't have meat management issues as you'll be spending the vast majority of your time where meat is provided in abundance.

4.) i've noticed most of the tech trees are meh with some minor neat or solid ideas. Mostly +3 here or +8 there. I hope the tech trees aren't a predictor of how they might scale back/down factions from 1 and 2 as that would be terribly...stupid.

5.) I'd say most of the lord skills are ok or decent.

6.) I think Lore of the Maw is actually pretty solid. Winds of Magic on the other hand seems heavily hamstringed from how it worked in previous games. It just seems like it drains way to quickly and doesn't regen quite as well. Ya, the spells for the lore is pretty high and could be dropped a bit. My concern is, again, due to the change in Winds of Magic factions like Vampire Counts which depend heavily upon healing and spell slinging will be unjustly hurt by this "design" decision.

7.) I feel the heroes are in a good spot. They have specific niches and roles, I have noticed lords and heroes across the board appear to be toned down in a heavy manner but it also appears to me that units melt more quickly in general (I guess to speed up combat?) which has an impact on lords and heroes performance.

8.) Haven't noticed this issue but I have a myriad of concerns with the new town/city siege structure. They do have a rather strong garrison in particular. Strong enough that if played just in a pitched battle is probably among some of the best.

9.) I disagree with their economy being bad. Granted it does mean plopping camps down in your own regions. Mix that with the tech tree upgrades for economy boosts and the Slaughtermaster lords income boost skills (located in the skill path once called Blue) along with the huge upkeep reduction from the buildings you'll be swimming in gold.

[matlajs]

I also wonder, if the player performing a mission for some faction, if he gets temporary military access to not trade its diplomacy reward for tresspasses.

[Razorhex]

I would Love to see an incentive to attack caravans. The Ogre's are supposed to be the biggest threat to the caravans, but as a player all it brings you is war. Love the caravans in general, I just want a flip side to the coin.

[Panfilo]

1.) This I do agree with. Contracts feel rudimentary and aren't really worthwhile right now. They could certainly be buffed. Honestly they should just have a comparable system to Eshin's version.
2.) Camps I'm fine with, because you get massively reduced Upkeep with them and they have a few uses. I actually find them more useful than black arks in spite of the latter being mobile over the water. You can force march, put your whole army in the camp and save a lot of money in the process. Camps you use offensively are meant to be dismantled over time to build new ones elsewhere.
3.)This is true, meat is somewhat like skaven food except food uses scaled up much better (eventually turning a ruin into a T5 settlement later on was really good). An easy solution is to have it work like slaanesh seduction where you could bribe certain units (all ogres and feral beast units) with meat to Hopefully get them to switch sides).
4.)Tech tree for ogres is one of the better ones actually. Most of the techs (contracts notwithstanding) are quite useful and relevant. And the main focus is to expand the number of camps and improve them. Getting +2 pop and bonus growth in enemy territory is a nice perk for example. I don't find their tech tree suffering nearly as much bloat or irrelevance as other races.
5.) This is an issue for nearly all the similar lord skills, the unit buffs are either not relavent to the unit or just not enough to justify 3 skill points.
6.)Heals and ld debuffs for the enemy is extremely clutch for an army that relies on battering down and scattering its enemies, I find these work well to that effect. And firebellies are amazing.
7,8) The lack of walls is a drag but consider gnoblars are the only ones that can stand on them anyway and they are more offensive based. You also can take 2 different garrison buildings together on a minor settlement if you want.
9) Between sacking and bonuses to post battle loot, on top of being any to trade their economy does fine. I struggle more economically with Kislev than with Ogres.

[Panfilo]

Originally posted by Razorhex:

I would Love to see an incentive to attack caravans. The Ogre's are supposed to be the biggest threat to the caravans, but as a player all it brings you is war. Love the caravans in general, I just want a flip side to the coin.

I've argued this too. In fact the contract system should have been other factions either paying you to intercept or protect them. It would have been much more interesting than what we got.

[Bomjus]

as someone with 3 ogre campaigns under their belt.

you have no idea what you're talking about. except for contracts. that's true.

[Tanuvein]

Contracts are underwhelming and need to be redesigned, they don't feel flavorful nor are the rewarding enough to put effort into. Meat is a pretty forgettable mechanic, I agree. Their economy is pretty strong though, as you can have a lot of camps up and keep your high cost units in a place with free upkeep. You don't need to pay for your Ogre armies unless you are actively attacking with that army. Lore of the Maw definitely isn't the best, but they do have access to Lore of Fire which has always been great, and Lore of Beast which seems quite strong in the current game. They are pretty sturdy for mage heroes, but they are still all mages. No walled settlements makes sense, since only gnoblars could go on them and they would be damn near useless in that situation. The walls would prevent ogres from charging the enemy where they are weakest while allow the enemy to have a place where they can shoot from and the Ogres have no good capability to take those walls back and displace the archers.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by Tanuvein:

No walled settlements makes sense, since only gnoblars could go on them and they would be damn near useless in that situation. The walls would prevent ogres from charging the enemy where they are weakest while allow the enemy to have a place where they can shoot from and the Ogres have no good capability to take those walls back and displace the archers.

I said that no walls is good.

In TWW3 walls became even more useless garbage becouse in walled city you have 2 strategic points instead of one.