New Kislev Guide with Katarin on Legendary Difficulty

[Laguna Queen]

Hello,

I have been working on this new Kislev guide with Katarin's faction. No one has commented yet, and I was wondering if there is anything I could improve on. I need some feedback and could use support if you think it is good.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2761667847

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2782133378

[Amereth]

I like the fact that you mention how to actually create chaos with a cavalry by just teasing the enemy with a fake charge, i do that a lot.

I would suggest removing the tsar guard for more ice guard in Katarin Army, the Ice guard are just way too superior with all the buff and they cost her nothing.

I would replace the Elemental Bear for more patriach ( more army buffs ) and i use wing lancer for their speed and their lower cost for my main cav, normally 3 unit with katarin.

But yeah overall great guide, should work on lower difficulty for those wondering.

[Amereth]

Main issue i have with the tsar is their cost and efficiency compared to basic kossar, if you have time i suggest you test both army with and without the tsar.

I am sure you wont see much difference and there is like approximately 150 gold difference between the two. I didnt test that too much so maybe i am wrong.

but if i am right that means we can use that money to field a second army earlier than if we use tzar.

that means we can focus on another building and wait for kislev to reach tier 4 to get our ice guards

If only the tzar had pistols like the armoured kossar then they would be the superior choice, but the fact that they dont have range put them in an inferior spot, especially on very hard/ legendary battle difficulty

[Lost Latios]

The font is an eye sore.

Also friendly fire does exist... Can't count how many times I've seen my lords get shot in the back and take major damage while trying to fight the enemy lord.

I like how there is plenty of pictures, as those can be a great visual aid for learning.

[Amereth]

Originally posted by Laguna Queen:

I only get 2-3 though then replace them later on. It is good for auto resolve too. I think kossars are okay but they're not hard hitters.

Yeah i see your point, i personally rarely auto resolve.

[Mad Mac]

Regarding Tzar Guard vs Armored Kossars: I personally think the Tzar Guard are underrated.

Obviously they are very expensive for being a similar unit to armored Kossars but in practice they hold up a lot better in my experience. For one thing they have an extra 28 HP/model over Kossars, that's a ton, combined with more armor/leadership and stats they can really take a lot of abuse. Secondly, not being a hybrid shooting unit like Kossars means they seem to me way less janky than Kossars are about following melee commands without getting stuck on each other or in animation loops, etc.

Also, unlike Kossars, Tzar Guard share their red tree with Ice Guard, so for Katarin especially it's a very easy 2 for 1 package deal in terms of picking out your unit buffs.

For Kostaltyn I would definitely say Kossars are the way to go, but for Katarin I think it makes a lot of sense to upgrade to Tzar Guard once you can afford it, and honestly she saves so much money on Ice Guard that you can easily afford it.

[Amereth]

Originally posted by Mad Mac:

Regarding Tzar Guard vs Armored Kossars: I personally think the Tzar Guard are underrated.

Obviously they are very expensive for being a similar unit to armored Kossars but in practice they hold up a lot better in my experience. For one thing they have an extra 28 HP/model over Kossars, that's a ton, combined with more armor/leadership and stats they can really take a lot of abuse. Secondly, not being a hybrid shooting unit like Kossars means they seem to me way less janky than Kossars are about following melee commands without getting stuck on each other or in animation loops, etc.

Also, unlike Kossars, Tzar Guard share their red tree with Ice Guard, so for Katarin especially it's a very easy 2 for 1 package deal in terms of picking out your unit buffs.

For Kostaltyn I would definitely say Kossars are the way to go, but for Katarin I think it makes a lot of sense to upgrade to Tzar Guard once you can afford it, and honestly she saves so much money on Ice Guard that you can easily afford it.

I don't like armored kossar and dont use them either, i am even happy when the one i start with dies...

I prefer basic kossars, they cost nothing ( dont require a building ) , possess good range and their purpose is not to tank anyway.

If for some reason they need to tank they are supported by patriach that offer amazing boosts and katarin that give 60% damage resistance, that should give plenty of time to position your other kossars/Ice guards or cav to do flanking damage.

Another good reason to use kossars over anything is the fact that if they die, they are way easier to replace and infantry tends to die more than the other jobs...

About them getting stuck, does it only apply when you ask the unit to attack or it happens when you drag and drop too ?

[Amereth]

You didn't mention anything about frost blade as a possible option, what is your take on that spell ?

I still need to test it, on paper it doesn't seem too bad, main downside being single target.

[ToucanSafari]

just lmao at people suggesting katarin uses anything but 18 ice guards in her stack. it's a legendary guide, you can't be screwing around with suboptimal stacks using LMAOTSARGUARDS

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by No_Title:

just lmao at people suggesting katarin uses anything but 18 ice guards in her stack. it's a legendary guide, you can't be screwing around with suboptimal stacks using LMAOTSARGUARDS

Little groms are really good too.
War slades are far superior unit to the cav in my opinion.
But only if you wan to manual fight every single ftime. Becouse in autoresolve they loose half hp every single time

My rules for Katarina is prety simple:
1) Keep dwarves, Kostaltine and brotherhood of bear alive as buffer between you and deamons. dont confederate them. As bufffer they are more useful.
2) Dont be friends with empire, fight them. It lets you to get more provinces and be friends with ogres.
As friends they are useless, they will die to ogres, and friendship with them guarantees you war with ogres.

[ArchAnge1LT]

Good stuff, congrats on nice guide.

[Amereth]

Originally posted by Laguna Queen:

Originally posted by Amereth:

You didn't mention anything about frost blade as a possible option, what is your take on that spell ?

I still need to test it, on paper it doesn't seem too bad, main downside being single target.

I have used that spell but would prefer to use other spells that can injure them at long range and more AOE damage. The spell is still useful for own Lord and characters when doing a Lord vs Lord fight. I can write about it later on.

I just want to write it in chronological order and I think there is already too many details at start so not sure if I should split that off.

I am not an expert in guide, but overall your structure seem good. I was asking the question about frost blade because it is either you take frost blade or death frost if you don't want to waste too many points in the spell line.

The way i see it they both are used against a single entity and since frost blade give a lot of armour piercing it might be able to outshine death frost ( i doubt that )

[Laguna Queen]

Originally posted by Amereth:

Originally posted by Laguna Queen:

I have used that spell but would prefer to use other spells that can injure them at long range and more AOE damage. The spell is still useful for own Lord and characters when doing a Lord vs Lord fight. I can write about it later on.

I just want to write it in chronological order and I think there is already too many details at start so not sure if I should split that off.

I am not an expert in guide, but overall your structure seem good. I was asking the question about frost blade because it is either you take frost blade or death frost if you don't want to waste too many points in the spell line.

The way i see it they both are used against a single entity and since frost blade give a lot of armour piercing it might be able to outshine death frost ( i doubt that )

My idea is to weaken the enemy before melee fighting. The frost blade does work well in mid-late game if the enemy is mostly melee. The only problem is taking too much during a melee slugfest. It is better if they can be turned into ice cream before doing a melee fight.

[Snowman]

1 ice witch lord (begin with blue tree first for 30% less attrition, replenishment, army cost reduction)
1 patriarch (replenishment + 20% less attrition = mandatory)
4 little groms
2 elemental bears
2 war bears
10 ice guards with glaives

You will wreck anything.

In the campaign, just stick to Kislev, Praag and the Eastern Oblast territories. Don't expand until you finish the campaign.
Use heroes to disable portals while your army is in the realms collecting souls.

[Snowman]

Originally posted by Laguna Queen:

Originally posted by Snowman:

1 ice witch lord (begin with blue tree first for 30% less attrition, replenishment, army cost reduction)
1 patriarch (replenishment + 20% less attrition = mandatory)
4 little groms
2 elemental bears
2 war bears
10 ice guards with glaives

You will wreck anything.

In the campaign, just stick to Kislev, Praag and the Eastern Oblast territories. Don't expand until you finish the campaign.
Use heroes to disable portals while your army is in the realms collecting souls.

I wish you wrote some context since your comment seem to be out of the blue. You would want Katarin to go get these skills first before getting Death Frost?

I agree that the reduced army upkeep is good but it seems like that would skip some important skills. You did read the section about skills?

Hi,

The blue skill tree offers great skills that are wonderful in the beginning of the campaign.

Reassuring presence, renowned and feared, logistician and quartermaster. These are beneficial concerning the beginning of the campaign. They create way more momentum in the early turns and in the chaos realms. You want to go as fast as possible and spending less turns replenishing, while fielding the strongest, but also the most expensive units.

Reassuring presence: 30% less attrition casualties + 20% from the patriarch is very great in the chaos realms and other hazardous territories.

Logistician: the faster an army can replenish, the less time lost. + replenishment from a patriarch makes a great combo. An amazing synergy with less attrition casualties. Even spending one turn less while replenishing can make a huge difference when you want to catch an enemy army.

Quartermaster + renowned and feared: I find it important to stick to 3 provinces only considering these specific campaign mechanics. They offer enough income to get around. It is a tight race to get those 4 souls. Indeed, the total income will be less in contrast to having more provinces, but it is way easier to defend them. Hence, you only need 2 armies and lower upkeep is important here, since an army needs strong, but expensive units. Katarina for the soulhunt and another to defend. I found this the most efficient way to complete campaign.

I gave every settlement walls, which makes a huge difference (incl. bigger garrisons) and makes the ai way more hesitant to attack. After the campaign is finished, the player can do whatever he/she pleases. But the 4 souls are top priority and requires no focus on conquering other provinces/confederating in the meanwhile.

Those 2 armies will do a lot of battles anyway, so they will get to the other trees very soon. Katarin went to lvl 50 very fast.

Actually I gave the spell tree the least importance. I went blue and red with the most effect. Buffing an army has more effect than individual spells. Once the magic reserves are depleted, spells become useless. But the buffs on the units stay.

Death frost is indeed an awesome skill, but Ice sheet (crowd control) is what made the most impact for me. My 10 ice guards + ice sheet destroyed lords and other units with big health very fast before they even got to my line. Plus it has a great casting range. As invocation I constantly used the Ursun one which offered the 'bitternes of winter ability' in battle. Plus the enemy attrition on the campaign map works amazingly well.

Normally I would also go for the alert skill. 30% ambush defence chance is incredible against factions that can attack with an ambush stance, like clan Eshin. Great for an immortal empires campaign, but not really of use in the current one.

In immortal empires other mechanics apply (no soulhunt). Then these suggestions might be different.

I hope I could help clarify my previous comment a bit.

Kind regards.

[Snowman]

I rushed the souls asap. Khorne, Tzentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle, in this order.

The first 3 are coincidence, but I kept Nurgle as the last one until I had my blue tree and patriarch leveled up.

If I notice that a faction is collecting souls faster than me, I take a look at which ones they have and try to anticipate where they will go next. This allows me to intercept them in that specific chaos realm and take them out whether or not they are hostile to me. I intercepted Goldtooth from the ogres and took him out before he could get a third soul. I definitely never took Slaanesh's offerings. It is not worth waiting another 30 turns or something until Ursun roars again just for some buffs or gold. I had 100k+ gold with 3 provinces and money rewards from battles alone.

Definitely watch out for Khorne's main army. I took it out in the chaos realm before they could level all their units to silver or gold chevrons. Their units are incredibly hard hitters when leveled up. I keep 4 little groms in every army just for these guys. The faster I can take out their bloodletters the better. They are also good against those huge winged demons. Skarbrand the exiled has to go down before he reaches my line and disrupts my formation. Khorne is really tough. All the other factions are weak imo.
Ice guard also slow down the enemy with their frostbite (-30% speed) and their anti-large is very strong against those waves of big mechanical demons in the final battle.

Tsar guards are imo underperforming. Khorne units rip them apart.

I never use horses. They are to weak compared to bears. A shame though, they look nice.

In the red tree:
- creatures of the land
- skilled craftsmen
- skirmisher traditions
- ursuns favoured
- battle engineers
- stand your ground

and definitely indomitable spirit in the special tree (katarina only).

I captured the Eastern Oblast first, then Praag. I got Praag at turn 39. Later than expected because of the ai playing a ridiculous cat and mouse game all the time. The ai seems to enjoy it to put their army just a little bit out of reach every time. I got my second army at turn 34 to put pressure on enemy positioning. Hellpit fell shortly after, but I needed my second army for this siege. In the beginning I only used armoured kossars and streltsis.

I had the luck that the Ropsmen clan took a settlement in Dukhlys forest. When they had only that one left I forged peace with them and helped them take over the entire province, securing my right flank. Now they are very strong, moved into the high pass to the east. And I can still confederate them whenever I please. :)

After the campaign (turn 120 or something) I moved south to destroy the vampires and help Zhufbar secure their western flank, so they can focus on the east. At turn 138 I am now consolidating the northern peninsula as a hedge against chaos, while Konstaltin moves into the chaos wastes to take out Tzeentch.

But while I am at it, I'll take all the empire regions too. I specifically never made non-agression pacts with them just for this reason alone. The annoying ogres in the south have to go too.