a Medieval Dynasty by definition and by usage

[Lord von Games]

Meriam Webster:
dynasty
noun
dy·​nas·​ty ˈdī-nə-stē also -ˌna-stē, especially British ˈdi-nə-stē
pluraldynasties
Synonyms of dynasty
1
: a succession of rulers of the same line of descent (see descent sense 1a)
a dynasty that ruled China for nearly 300 years
2
: a powerful group or family that maintains its position for a considerable time
born into a powerful political dynasty
a baseball dynasty

and let's not forget the history of the word

Word History
Etymology
Middle English dynastia, dynastie "power, sovereignty, succession of rulers," borrowed from Medieval Latin dynastīa, going back to Late Latin, "rule, power," borrowed from Greek dynasteía "arbitrarily exercised political power, lordship, rule," from dynástēs "holder of political power, lord, ruler" + -eia -y entry 2 — more at dynast

First Known Use
14th century, in the meaning defined at sense 1

Time Traveler
The first known use of dynasty was in the 14th century

Let me translate all that information for you. The word was originally used in the Medieval period to refer to family that ruled. Within the hierarchy of the feudal system that would mean a titled position. That IS not maybe, but DEFINITELY THEE meaning of the word Dynasty when used within the period it was born and meant. When used in the time period of a "Medieval" dynasty. When used outside the time period, it can mean "top class", such as Farmer Dynasty. When used in its own time period, the medieval, it's not an expression, but a literal translation (first definition, that's how language works), as I shall illustrate.

If I make a game called "Industrialist Tycoon" and then I fail to put the Tycoon aspects in the game... sure I can point to a legacy of games with the Tycoon in it... but it doesn't change the fact that certain titles come with clear expectations, and should not need a mile long paragraph to dislodge them from their titular expectations.

Rather than "rage against the machine" and ignorantly, allow me to further expound on this game's background in it's "Dynasty" usage.

The first game was "Farmer's Dynasty" and was clearly about a modern-age family and had nothing to do with an actual hereditary claim of ruling ancestry (whether from King to lowly Knight or Baronet). In this case, the game, used the concept of Medieval/Ancient "Dynastic" term to capture the concept of being legendary or "Kingly" as in top farmer. It's the use of the term Dynasty from the Medieval times where it meant to be top of the class heap to make the claim that you would be top farmer, with a legacy, and a family. Cool. Nice use of the expression. Perhaps "Legacy" would have been better... but I like it.

HOWEVER... if you go back in time to when the phrase was actually used... if you go back to the actual days of the Dynasties where the two-word term "Medieval Dynasty" was actually used, you lose the casual-right to claim it's just an "expression", when you are now in the period of the game where it wasn't an expression, instead, it was a very very specific thing.

Let me further elaborate. It's like making a game title using the expression "Curse like a sailor" and making it about some IDK, Trucker game... let's call it "Trucker Boss - Cursing Like A Sailor" then, cool. Probably about a "frenzied" truck game that is stressful, and full of expletives. However, if you make another game, this one is actually nautical, IDK, let's call the game "Sea Captain - Cursing Like A Sailor" and then you don't get to be a sailor... WTH? If your going to take the game franchise to the actual period of the actual expression, you lose the right to say... oh, it's just an expression taken from the time period of the actual expression that actually means something that we don't want to put in your game... WTH? Seriously?

Look up the definition of the two-word term, "Medieval Dynasty", and you have to get VERY creative and use definitions way way way down the line to mean ANYTHING BUT a titled-ruling-family of either royalty or nobility. Now, you can make that "ruling" small in scope, because I agree, that this isn't a castle-building, king-ruling, duke-doing game. What I don't understand is what seems to be a stubbornness to "finish" the game's own titular usage. It takes very little code to make the title fit the game... for example... just earn a "Knighthood" with the King and he gives you your titled dynasty, and let the player unlock a Manor-house". Now its a Medieval Dynasty.

But to pretend otherwise its a shame on the name of the game. A "Medieval Dynasty" should NEVER be a peasant simulator.

My Compromise: Just because I, and many others find it odd that with a simple flick of additional code the game can be made complete, I acknowledge completely that there is often a big difference between "Factual" and "Matters". Just because the inclusion and immersion is important to me and many others, does not mean it is equally important to everyone else. I readily concede that. We all have our preferences. Clearly some people would like to see this game a first-person extension of the game Banished. Others seem to hope for something more like a first person extension of Lord of the Realm or even Lords of the Rings.

Concluding Note: I think a Medieval Dynasty should have a Medieval Dynasty, the setting of the orignial and birthplace of the term, clearly stamping it in its first defintion, with all the expectations that a Medieval game offers. I expect that the developers would keep the game within the scope that it clearly is - and focus more on developing a simple domain, no great castles, sieges or epic warfare. All of this limited scope can be wonderfully immersively taken in with a simple Crest-Tied-Titled King quest that offers a hereditary "landed" / "Titled" position. And in keeping with a good sandbox game, this and many other concepts can be optionally taken in quest or custom settings.

Edit: After some constructive back and forth discussion with veteran gamer, "TheRealMuehle" I have opted to support the title "Thane", as it relates VERY well to being in touch with the commoner and peasant life, it relates directly to being given land to manager, it is Step One in the feudal caste of a Dynasty, and applies to many European cultures. I think its simplicity and yet Dynastic nature would be perfect to make the game fit both the literal-period definition of Dynasty and the expression, it would also require very very little code-change or playstyle change.

[TheRealMuehle]

Well, ok then. I appologise.
But yeah, the game-title 'Dynasty' clearly follows the modern definition to fit in line
with all the other 'Dynasty'-Games running under the publisher Toplitz.

Edit:
And calling us by a certain title ingame is very difficult,
if you take all the many different ways to play MD into account.

[Lord von Games]

Originalmente postado por TheRealMuehle:

Well, ok then. I appologise.
But yeah, the game-title 'Dynasty' clearly follows the modern deffinition to fit in line
with all the other 'Dynasty'-Games running under the publisher Toplitz.

Yes... and with very little coding-work, it can match BOTH the real definition and the modern expression.

Originalmente postado por TheRealMuehle:

Edit:
And calling us by a certain title ingame is very difficult,
if you take all the many different ways to play MD into account.

I agree. Take all the different cultures that the player might imagine they are playing from, though the devs have said it is Eastern/Polish Europe. Still. I think going with "Knighted" and then the generic "Lord" would work, rather than get title-super-specific.

You know "Thane" is an excellent middle ground "titled" position that would work, and is keeping with the flavor of the game's culture and culture possibilities.

[TheRealMuehle]

Well, it should be a title from the time and region for sure.

But the point is/remains:
Would even 'Lord' reflect the many different styles to play the game?
Would it be ok for small farmer to be called 'Lord' by NPCs, for example?
Or would it break immersion?
And for other styles, the 'Lord'-title may be a bit underwhelming.
Or simply wrong. A 'Lord' would most likely send his 'Knights' to free the land of
bandits, instead of doing it himself.

Edit:
Have to look that up. Is Thane english? Deepl hasn't recognized it.
E2:
It's a scottish title.

[Lord von Games]

Originalmente postado por TheRealMuehle:

Well, it should be a title from the time and region for sure.

But the point is/remains:
Would even 'Lord' reflect the many different styles to play the game?
Would it be ok for small farmer to be called 'Lord' by NPCs, for example?
Or would it break immersion?
And for other styles, the 'Lord'-title may be a bit underwhelming.
Or simply wrong. A 'Lord' would most likely send his 'Knights' to free the land of
bandits, instead of doing it himself.

Edit:
Have to look that up. Is Thane english? Deepl hasn't recognized it.

It's Saxon in origin, which gives it a broader range of application, and is also broad in its actual rank. Is it Baron, is it Knight, is it what? It is titled, and it does relate to being given land to manage.

From my personal take, the whole title should be an endgame thing. If you are only running a farm... then would it even happen? If it's the last quest... accept it or not?

Also... Thane, is one of the more "grounded" titles, it typically goes to a commoner as a reward, it doesn't necessarily change their life that much, and the player can continue on with whatever they would like to do. It's not like making Duke, Earl/Count etc (which I think, personally) is way outside the game's scope.

Edit: Scottish is one application, yes, but not exclusive to it.

[TheRealMuehle]

Hmh. Ok, that's a serious suggestion, imo.
Let's see what others think about it.

[Lord von Games]

Originalmente postado por TheRealMuehle:

Hmh. Ok, that's a serious suggestion, imo.
Let's see what others think about it.

Thanks. I'm really starting to like the concept of Thane too, as a specific. It was barely elevated out of the commoner state, and if you look at all the definitions, the ways it fit in society... I think it would fit the scope of the game too. It would even allow players to really fluff themselves up to some silly princely level if that's what their heart desires (it has a lot of application).

As for immersion to interaction with the NPC's...

There were knights who continued farming or craftsman activities even after being knighted.

William Marshal: Before becoming a renowned knight, William Marshal was trained in the household of a relative who was a mercer (a merchant dealing in fine fabrics and clothing). Even after his knighthood, he continued to manage his estates and engage in trade.

Geoffrey de Mandeville: Originally a blacksmith, Geoffrey de Mandeville rose to become a prominent knight and nobleman. Despite his elevated status, he continued to be involved in metalwork and craftsmanship.

Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester: Robert de Beaumont was involved in trade and commerce, managing his estates and ensuring the welfare of his tenants.

While I can't think of any "Thanes" offhand... I would think such common-integration would be even more prevalent.

[Tristin]

okay, if you are going to cry about the accuracy of the name, don'y use the Webster dictionary. Go look up a medieval Bohemian dictionary. The game does not take place in England, so the English translation is irrelevant even thought its the only language you speak.

[TheRealMuehle]

Originalmente postado por Tristin:

okay, if you are going to cry about the accuracy of the name, don'y use the Webster dictionary. Go look up a medieval Bohemian dictionary. The game does not take place in England, so the English translation is irrelevant even thought its the only language you speak.

Do you know the corresponding translation / the corresponding medieval Bohemian
title, perhaps?

[Tristin]

Originalmente postado por TheRealMuehle:

Originalmente postado por Tristin:

okay, if you are going to cry about the accuracy of the name, don'y use the Webster dictionary. Go look up a medieval Bohemian dictionary. The game does not take place in England, so the English translation is irrelevant even thought its the only language you speak.

Do you know the corresponding translation / the corresponding medieval Bohemian
title, perhaps?

Ell no, lol. just pointing out that he is trying to be authentic, but isnt speaking the right language. English at this time period would be far worse then it is now, which says something. But he needs to figure out what the Bohemian definition of the English word "Dynasty" would be to be able to complain about its misuse, as most languages don't translate into English properly.

[TheRealMuehle]

Oh, sorry for my unclear wording.
Do you know the corresponding translation of the title 'Thane'?
Or a corresponding accurate title for the time and region MD is set in?

[eighmy_lupin]

"2
: a powerful group or family that maintains its position for a considerable time
born into a powerful political dynasty
a baseball dynasty"


This is literally the entire point of the game.

Making a generational family that rules the town you created

[Tristin]

Originalmente postado por eighmy_lupin:

"2
: a powerful group or family that maintains its position for a considerable time
born into a powerful political dynasty
a baseball dynasty"


This is literally the entire point of the game.

Making a generational family that rules the town you created

I agree. I am the ruler of a settlement. I have surfs who work for me. I sell what they produce to pay my taxes to the castillian, who pays taxes to the King or lord. I am a low level land ruler, but i am a ruler none the less.

[Tristin]

Originalmente postado por TheRealMuehle:

Oh, sorry for my unclear wording.
Do you know the corresponding translation of the title 'Thane'?
Or a corresponding accurate title for the time and region MD is set in?

Thane or Reeve i think are the closes ranks to what we are, or become in the game, what would be Czech for those titles?

[Ookapia]

Originalmente postado por Lord von Games:

That's like a weekend's worth of work.

If there is mod support at some point, you will certainly make the community happy with this small expansion.

Otherwise, with your skills it shouldn't be that difficult to simply programme your own, better game.

So just make it happen.

[barbaraclubb]

I think becoming castellan would be cool. And I wouldn't mind a manor house.