Fix the terrible localization

[Evangela]

Japanese characters got their family names & given names reversed. This is unacceptable in 2020.

[Rafael Sol Maker]

Автор сообщения: JonPringus

Автор сообщения: Rafael Sol Maker

So, tell me, is the translation made for casuals enjoying the game (the majority), or for other translators/localizers/experts (the 0, 01%) or whatever you call it?

It should be made for the 0.01%. If a translation is able to impress the experts, it will naturally also impress the unwashed masses. Much like how if a game is really good for competitive, it will naturally attract casuals because of the tight gameplay.

Even if the unwashed masses hate the game because of the accurate and faithful translation, that doesn't mean localizers should morph the game to appeal to them. One side of this argument has the highground, and it's the side that fights for accurate translations despite what everyone else wants.

Too much mental gymnastics here, try to skew my argument as much as you want. The game should be good enough to the target market be able to appreciate it, not to appease the arrogant eilitists. Designs aren't made for designers to look at, they should be made for the ones who will actually use it.

Not every competitive game is actually good for casuals, there's no correlation here, those are two entirely different crowds with different needs.Stop mixing stuff.

And the translation should be as faithful as posible, as far it doesn't get in the way in the one who's playing, otherwise it should be changed, but always keeping the original intent.

There's no thing such as perfect localization. There is always compromises. Actually I prefer this term to translation, since translation tends to be too literal.

[JonPringus]

Автор сообщения: Rafael Sol Maker

Автор сообщения: JonPringus

It should be made for the 0.01%. If a translation is able to impress the experts, it will naturally also impress the unwashed masses. Much like how if a game is really good for competitive, it will naturally attract casuals because of the tight gameplay.

Even if the unwashed masses hate the game because of the accurate and faithful translation, that doesn't mean localizers should morph the game to appeal to them. One side of this argument has the highground, and it's the side that fights for accurate translations despite what everyone else wants.

Too much mental gymnastics here, try to skew my argument as much as you want. The game should be good enough to the target market be able to appreciate it, not to appease the arrogant eilitists. Designs aren't made for designers to look at, they should be made for the ones who will actually use it.

Not every competitive game is actually good for casuals, there's no correlation here, those are two entirely different crowds with different needs.Stop mixing stuff.

And the translation should be as faithful as posible, as far it doesn't get in the way in the one who's playing, otherwise it should be changed, but always keeping the original intent.

There's no thing such as perfect localization. There is always compromises. Actually I prefer this term to translation, since translation tends to be too literal.

I suppose some games don't benefit casuals by having a good competitive scene, but all the ones I can think of; TF2, CSGO, Smash, etc. do benefit from it. Even games that aren't made for competitive, but were able to grow a speedrunning community because of how tight the controls are or whatever else, like Kingdom Hearts 2 or most famous platformers, benefit those who play the game competitively, but it also benefits and attracts the more casual crowd.

But I see a problem with my comparison: these games don't have a high barrier of entry, they just have a high skill ceiling. So I'll retract that comparison because translated games should not have a low barrier of entry for the general public.

I'm an utter gatekeeper, I'll admit it. I expect my peers who play the games or watch the shows I do to have the same or higher level of knowledge and the same level of dedication to the media that I do. If someone doesn't like it when accurate honorifics are being translated, or doesn't like it if a joke that "only the japanese will understand" is kept in instead of being localized, I invite them to accept it and learn to love it, or to leave and not ruin the things I enjoy.

Now, imo, a good translation won't leave the unwashed masses scratching their heads wondering what's going on, but it also won't change the subject matter to make it more easy for them to understand. Instead it will educate them on the subject and make them understand what's happening. One of the best and simplest ways is to have translator's notes. Persona 4 for PS2 has some in the glossary of the manual, explaining mythology of the characters' personas, various terms from japanese culture that are used (Enka, Daifuku, etc.), as well as what each Honorific means. Sure, it's really easy for people to look that stuff up now, but I think it's best if the translator has that list so a.) lazier people don't have to look it up, and b.) so the audience can be on the same page as to what is going through the translator's mind.

There should always be debate in a translators' room as to what will be the best way to translate something and what words will be more accurate for what is being said, the connotation of what's being said, the emotions, etc. But I don't think their thought process should be "the general public won't get it, so let's make it simpler.

I don't care about the business side of things, I want accuracy over everything. You may prefer "localization" over translation, but "localization" means forgoing the accuracy of the translation in the hopes of appealing to people who I don't want enjoying what I enjoy. I thoroughly believe every human, whether 8 or 80, no matter who they are, or where they come from, or what language they speak, is capable of understanding and appreciating an accurate translation. The only bar keeping the unwashed masses from doing this is their own minds. With a good and accurate translation that educates as well as entertains, everyone is capable even with minimal effort.

Also, if anyone out there is going to fix the text in this game, be sure to change "Teddie's" name back to "Kuma" and rewrite his dialogue so he says "kuma" at the end of each sentence instead of doing bear puns. That totally skipped my mind this whole time lol.

[Jubejubes]

"Wow, it's so hard to check the meaning in the internet which takes 1 minute and lasts for whole life! Literally impossible.
Why are you even playing games that were made in different cultures and countries if you're so scared about foreign concepts?"

this. And the fact you people defend the notion that everything has to be conformed to western standards..

i suggest you people take a history class about how "westernization" of Japan has actually affected them.

HINT : IT"S NOT GOOD. I'd post it here, but it's probably not an appropriate thing to talk about.

needless to say, the country is basically scrambling to come to a solution on their population issue as it's estimated they might not exist at all anymore withint the next 100 - 150 years.

but ya..

none of this is a big deal as long as people get their fix and get their game the way they want it.
screw culture. screw preservation of art.

money money money!
money!

[CDI Mario]

Автор сообщения: Evangela

Автор сообщения: Altun

My dude. This game is 8 years old.

They also did that in Persona 5 which is not that old of a game, and will probably do it in the upcoming games as well, because nobody says anything about it.

It's disrespectful towards Japanese people.

these are made by japanese people. i dont think they care

[Rafael Sol Maker]

Автор сообщения: JonPringus

I suppose some games don't benefit casuals by having a good competitive scene, but all the ones I can think of; TF2, CSGO, Smash, etc. do benefit from it. Even games that aren't made for competitive, but were able to grow a speedrunning community because of how tight the controls are or whatever else, like Kingdom Hearts 2 or most famous platformers, benefit those who play the game competitively, but it also benefits and attracts the more casual crowd.

But I see a problem with my comparison: these games don't have a high barrier of entry, they just have a high skill ceiling. So I'll retract that comparison because translated games should not have a low barrier of entry for the general public.

I'm an utter gatekeeper, I'll admit it. I expect my peers who play the games or watch the shows I do to have the same or higher level of knowledge and the same level of dedication to the media that I do. If someone doesn't like it when accurate honorifics are being translated, or doesn't like it if a joke that "only the japanese will understand" is kept in instead of being localized, I invite them to accept it and learn to love it, or to leave and not ruin the things I enjoy.

Now, imo, a good translation won't leave the unwashed masses scratching their heads wondering what's going on, but it also won't change the subject matter to make it more easy for them to understand. Instead it will educate them on the subject and make them understand what's happening. One of the best and simplest ways is to have translator's notes. Persona 4 for PS2 has some in the glossary of the manual, explaining mythology of the characters' personas, various terms from japanese culture that are used (Enka, Daifuku, etc.), as well as what each Honorific means. Sure, it's really easy for people to look that stuff up now, but I think it's best if the translator has that list so a.) lazier people don't have to look it up, and b.) so the audience can be on the same page as to what is going through the translator's mind.

There should always be debate in a translators' room as to what will be the best way to translate something and what words will be more accurate for what is being said, the connotation of what's being said, the emotions, etc. But I don't think their thought process should be "the general public won't get it, so let's make it simpler.

I don't care about the business side of things, I want accuracy over everything. You may prefer "localization" over translation, but "localization" means forgoing the accuracy of the translation in the hopes of appealing to people who I don't want enjoying what I enjoy. I thoroughly believe every human, whether 8 or 80, no matter who they are, or where they come from, or what language they speak, is capable of understanding and appreciating an accurate translation. The only bar keeping the unwashed masses from doing this is their own minds. With a good and accurate translation that educates as well as entertains, everyone is capable even with minimal effort.

Also, if anyone out there is going to fix the text in this game, be sure to change "Teddie's" name back to "Kuma" and rewrite his dialogue so he says "kuma" at the end of each sentence instead of doing bear puns. That totally skipped my mind this whole time lol.

Okay, I can see you're pretty reasonable. I know where you coming from and where do you want to reach, and I respect that. I will not be the advocate for the brainless masses here nor the perfectionist elitists.

Glad you spotted, we have adaptations and adaptations, all different from each other. Some were pretty atrocious westernizations, like Pokémon or anything 4Kids. Persona I do find in the right balance, it has most of the elements and respect the mythos of the original, with some very minor changes that don't get in the way too much.

Striving for a balance doesn't mean it will be flawless, only that it will have lesser compromises but reaching the wider audience as possible without losing the original message. I'm a perfectionist myself, but I do understand that things aren't made to cather to my specific OCPD.

But one thing is certain in every case: There is always space to improve things. See ya!

[Mr. Yosha!]

This is the most stupid and weeb post I've seen in my life and I laughed so hard.

Thanks

[Jubejubes]

Автор сообщения: Rafael Sol Maker

Автор сообщения: JonPringus

I suppose some games don't benefit casuals by having a good competitive scene, but all the ones I can think of; TF2, CSGO, Smash, etc. do benefit from it. Even games that aren't made for competitive, but were able to grow a speedrunning community because of how tight the controls are or whatever else, like Kingdom Hearts 2 or most famous platformers, benefit those who play the game competitively, but it also benefits and attracts the more casual crowd.

But I see a problem with my comparison: these games don't have a high barrier of entry, they just have a high skill ceiling. So I'll retract that comparison because translated games should not have a low barrier of entry for the general public.

I'm an utter gatekeeper, I'll admit it. I expect my peers who play the games or watch the shows I do to have the same or higher level of knowledge and the same level of dedication to the media that I do. If someone doesn't like it when accurate honorifics are being translated, or doesn't like it if a joke that "only the japanese will understand" is kept in instead of being localized, I invite them to accept it and learn to love it, or to leave and not ruin the things I enjoy.

Now, imo, a good translation won't leave the unwashed masses scratching their heads wondering what's going on, but it also won't change the subject matter to make it more easy for them to understand. Instead it will educate them on the subject and make them understand what's happening. One of the best and simplest ways is to have translator's notes. Persona 4 for PS2 has some in the glossary of the manual, explaining mythology of the characters' personas, various terms from japanese culture that are used (Enka, Daifuku, etc.), as well as what each Honorific means. Sure, it's really easy for people to look that stuff up now, but I think it's best if the translator has that list so a.) lazier people don't have to look it up, and b.) so the audience can be on the same page as to what is going through the translator's mind.

There should always be debate in a translators' room as to what will be the best way to translate something and what words will be more accurate for what is being said, the connotation of what's being said, the emotions, etc. But I don't think their thought process should be "the general public won't get it, so let's make it simpler.

I don't care about the business side of things, I want accuracy over everything. You may prefer "localization" over translation, but "localization" means forgoing the accuracy of the translation in the hopes of appealing to people who I don't want enjoying what I enjoy. I thoroughly believe every human, whether 8 or 80, no matter who they are, or where they come from, or what language they speak, is capable of understanding and appreciating an accurate translation. The only bar keeping the unwashed masses from doing this is their own minds. With a good and accurate translation that educates as well as entertains, everyone is capable even with minimal effort.

Also, if anyone out there is going to fix the text in this game, be sure to change "Teddie's" name back to "Kuma" and rewrite his dialogue so he says "kuma" at the end of each sentence instead of doing bear puns. That totally skipped my mind this whole time lol.

Okay, I can see you're pretty reasonable. I know where you coming from and where do you want to reach, and I respect that. I will not be the advocate for the brainless masses here nor the perfectionist elitists.

Glad you spotted, we have adaptations and adaptations, all different from each other. Some were pretty atrocious westernizations, like Pokémon or anything 4Kids. Persona I do find in the right balance, it has most of the elements and respect the mythos of the original, with some very minor changes that don't get in the way too much.

Striving for a balance doesn't mean it will be flawless, only that it will have lesser compromises but reaching the wider audience as possible without losing the original message. I'm a perfectionist myself, but I do understand that things aren't made to cather to my specific OCPD.

But one thing is certain in every case: There is always space to improve things. See ya!

it's insulting for you to call us "perfectionists" "arrogant" and elitists.

i don't know about anyone else, but my only concern here is that the white washing of other cultures doesn't continue.

I'm not being arrogant
I'm not being insulting
I'm not being a "perfectionist"
an "elitist"

or w/e new insult you people want to throw my way.

You just don't happen to see the direct correlation in censoring art from other countries and modifying it to fit our standards of thinking as a problem.

THis really isn't even about just one video game. THis is about how if people want to appreciate art from another country, there's an expectation that they learn about the culture behind that art. If it was anything other than "entertainment" (video games, movies, shows) this whole argument would not even be taking place. No one would be in disagreement that a piece of native american art should not be painted pink when localized to another country. No one would think of modfying the mona lisa to have a higher collar just because some highly religious society determined she was too "exposed"

you would be laughed at if you did thijnk this way and it woudl be abnormal..

THe issue here is that when it comes to video games, movies, shows from other countries, our response is basically to treat people as if they are too stupid to appreciate said art unless it is modified to suit the needs of their culture. We remove religious references, dumb things down, change relationships completely between characters etc etc..

and for some messed up reason this is acceptable.

I fail to see the difference between forcing a muslim to read the q'ran in English to shoving americanized japanimation down everyone's throats often to the point where it's no longer even evident where it originated from.

you want to view this as "arrogant" "elitist" "perfectionist"

well that's your issue, not mine. i do not appreciate these terms. There's a direct co-relation between the ongoing westernization of asian cultures and racism. there's a direct correlation between the westernation of Japan and it's declining society. studying history will tell yuou this. America has been telling Japan what to believe (specifically regarding sexuality) for at least the last 150 years, engraining in their minds that this is wrong, that is wrong, treating them like uncivilized barbarians. In an ironic twist of fate, after we stopped doing this, we exposed them to hollywood ..and welp..yup. And to this day, we're constantly labelling them as perverts, slandering them, evicting them from their homes for the music they listen to and for most of the early 2000s treating anyone who even watched anime, listened to japanese like a communist, evicting them on the spot for "noise disturbances" and publicly shaming them in society.

now we steal their media and force feed it to our children in a dilluted watered down form because it's all of the sudden popular..

so, yes offense, you are not going to convince me that none of this is a problem.

Taking something created from another country and modifying it to the point it does nto even represent it's country of origin any more..

that is wrong. Throwing insults at those who beleive so really does nothing to change our opinions.

no one is telling ou to not appreciate this version of the game or that version of the game.

At least I'm not.

All i'm pointing out is although it definitely can be appreciated as a video game, it's not what the original creator intended it to be and should be taken with a grain of salt and if you appreciate this art form in any way you should support those who create this stuff in their country of origin rather than put money in the pockets of greedy beurucrats.

so for the love of w/e god you believe in, do not use those terms to refer to me again.

[Jubejubes]

might get banned for all that..
don't really care. sick of this pathetic discussion.

[EpicD1CK]

There is nothing more useless nor more pathetic than people who spend their days arguing on internet forums. You can watch paint dry for 24 hours and it would still be more productive.

Instead of spending your time writing full paragraph essays trying to convince the Gaijin Normies here on why they are nothing but utter trash, you guys would be better of investing your time to making your ideal localization mod for PS4G instead now that it is released on PC like some have already suggested.

[Jubejubes]

Автор сообщения: EpicD1CK

There is nothing more useless nor more pathetic than people who spend their days arguing on internet forums. You can watch paint dry for 24 hours and it would still be more productive.

Instead of spending your time writing full paragraph essays trying to convince the Gaijin Normies here on why they are nothing but utter trash, you guys would be better of investing your time to making your ideal localization mod for PS4G instead now that it is released on PC like some have already suggested.

i don't think THEY arre utter trash. my issue, AND I CAN'T CLARIFY ENOUGH, is with the butchered westernization of all types of art and culture.

I think it's bad, and it infuriates me. I've got no personal issue with anyone here.

[JonPringus]

Автор сообщения: EpicD1CK

There is nothing more useless nor more pathetic than people who spend their days arguing on internet forums. You can watch paint dry for 24 hours and it would still be more productive.

Instead of spending your time writing full paragraph essays trying to convince the Gaijin Normies here on why they are nothing but utter trash, you guys would be better of investing your time to making your ideal localization mod for PS4G instead now that it is released on PC like some have already suggested.

I'm open to help out any way I can if anyone out there wants to start this project up. Just reach out to me here on Steam. I'm not capable of starting this project up myself, at least not at the moment.

[Evangela]

Nah.... it's too painful to make a re-translation mod. It's the publisher's job, not the consumers's.

If people don't complain about it, all the upcoming games are gonna be localized that way and we'll have to make a re-translation mod for every game we care about. That's not the right way to fight for it.

[JonPringus]

Автор сообщения: Evangela

Nah.... it's too painful to make a re-translation mod. It's the publisher's job, not the consumers's.

If people don't complain about it, all the upcoming games are gonna be localized that way and we'll have to make a re-translation mod for every game we care about. That's not the right way to fight for it.

By making a re-translation mod, we can show the publisher that there is a market for it, thus making it more likely for them to provide accurate translations in the future.

Sometimes it is way too hard for fans to reasonably retranslate a game (like Ace Attorney). But we can't downplay the power of unpaid fan translations. Plus when it's left in the fans hands, there isn't a worry about possible copyright issues, and opinions about what is most accurate are left in the public's hands, not the publisher's, with no worry about if it will sell better if translated a certain way. This is why JoJo will always be better fan-translated, there is no worry of copyright over band names, nor worry about making money.

[JDelwynn]

You don't even know what's the difference between translation and localization. Fan translations are usually bad because they try to directly translate japanese to english without understanding that it needs to be localized to western audiences. I'm glad that you are not in charge of localization or it would be a mess. Want the pure experience? Learn to read japanese and stop complaining.

[Dax_B]

Автор сообщения: Hinoutoumei（火王刀メイ）

none of this is a big deal as long as people get their fix and get their game the way they want it.
screw culture. screw preservation of art.

money money money!
money!

Okay, just reminding you that Atlus spearheaded this project themselves. Any 'western liberties' was approved by the team in Japan, so if you have a problem with that then take it up with them.

https://personacentral.com/persona-4-golden-steam-edition-atlus-japan/