Legion of wax a tad OP

[CoolNitro]

I really do hate to say this but this monster needs a nerf of some kind with either cast cost or starting size as it's way too over powered if you manage to get large stone or the 25 health stone and multistrike on it.

What makes it even more OP is the card intent on death as you can end up with a room with one large and six medium legion units which can all split again and carry over with full health and multistrike. During multiple runs a single floor with this setup can wipe everything including last boss without losing the floor.

An example of this, although these guys extra multistrike due to 3 slot upgrade.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2112067137

[ERROR]

Legion of wax alone without being split or overstacked on a floor, is pretty weak against normal enemies with over 100 health (even if you have multistrike on it). Once it splits, then that's another story, but by that time, some of the enemies would likely gone past it and damaged your spire. He's also weak against emberdrain attacks, which will make your next hands unplayable.

It might look OP on low covenant ranks, but on higher ranks it requires heavy support from other units, if you want to even get to fight the boss at the end, which is the only thing he's good at, sustaining and dealing damage to single targets (bosses).

Obviously the game can't be perfectly balanced for every covenant rank.

[Lorska]

The only application for it is to put it down right when the boss spawns when you have a free floor, cause you don't want it to split early and block everything.

Legion of wax is probably the weakest of all the win conditions remnants have and they have A LOT of them, especially considering synergy with other factions.
I had a legion with large stone and multi strike once (also the extinguish triggering twice artefact) and the only thing this did was make it take longer to kill seraph than to just nuke him with my actually good units. You know, the ones you need to kill trash mobs...

Basically legion is only good if you get the best upgrades for it, don't intend to use one of your floors, and also have no real win condition despite being able to clear the trash mobs consistently. And then you wasted gold on a super rare unit that doesn't actually help you survive to the boss while you could have just used a consistent win condition.

[Peregrin Took]

Hahaha great screenshot OP.

I take it every time I encounter it early on a run, but I'm only around covenant 7.

I find it a fantastic tank, maybe unbeatable, but it's damage output is still limited by getting some great upgrades or enhancements. And of course damage is what needs to scale in order to win the later fights. I haven't found it overpowered yet but that's just my personal experience.

[CoolNitro]

Escrito originalmente por Peregrin Took:

Hahaha great screenshot OP.

You can't see clearly in that screenshot but I had shadowsiege on the second floor and a dup copy of legion on standby for bottom floor wipe, it was an OP run in it's self.

Generally speaking and so far up to cov 12 when I have the right setup i.e legion upgraded and intent on death + holdover in my deck I set him down on the bottom floor within the first two turns and hopefully intent on death before he splits so I can start stacking 6 medium legions in front of the main large one, if all goes well they clear most waves or at least highly damage tanks all the way till seraph attacks at which point seraph only manages to kill 4 to 5 medium legion stacks and their smaller splits leaving the main large unit and one or two mediums.

Since I don't know what to expect from higher cov levels I can't comment on its effectiveness above rank 12 but so far it's more reliable as a boss killer due to much less reliance on card draw and RNG mid waves.

I want to get a run where I have the upgrades on it and also get cavern upgrades like the purge + HP / dmg or the over sized one and make it an even bigger tank.

[Ichthyic]

I just did 10 straight runs with melters to test some ideas, and legion can end up generating more damage than any other unit in the game. easily.

just take umbra as your second.

think about it.

raise your hand if you don't get it.

imagine 200 damage, 200 health, 6 or better multistrike... on the BASE unit. add stealth to that?

because I just did 3 runs in a row where I got that, and it wasn't especially hard, though one run even had a trample added. I call that exceptionally lucky.

none of the bosses after the 3rd even managed to trigger the death of the base unit.

I have no idea how you would "nerf" that, since it's dependent on several things to happen, none of which by themselves are rare, or OP in and of themselves.

leave it as a puzzle for better minds than mine I suppose.

[Songbird]

Dunno where this whole "Remnant is weak" thing started. The only way they look weak to me is if you try to not have their units die or if you take Harvest Rector Flicker in circle one without something that will make you not just die for that. Bounty Stalker is insane, Big Sludge is insane, Molded is insane, Dregs are very good for a starter card (self-purging, chump blockers, trigger harvest, only one space, 0 energy units which makes them exceptional for triggering many artifacts, get to decent stats pretty quickly with reforming), stealth is insane, Intent on Death is insane, Flicker's Liquor basically makes every card in your hand cost 0 every single turn...

My last Remnant win had ten Spikedriver Colonies with Burnout 1 and 36x2 base damage, and if Rector Flicker reformed one it would gain 25x2 more damage, making clearing enemies trivial. For the boss I had a Big Sludge with twelve stacks of Multistrike thanks to repeatedly reforming an Impish Scholar to give me back a doublestack Onehorn's Tome (and make it cost 0 with Flicker's Liquor), which had 11 rounds of stealth to do over 3000 damage per round.

And any Remnant run where I get Bounty Stalker, I just win by having a unit that does over 100 damage and comes with stealth kill everything...

I've yet to get a run where Legion of Wax seemed too attractive, though, just because it takes up so much space and it needs upgrades to be worth that space. Seems like it could be good with some upgrades and Intent on Death, though.

[Neon Black Interactive]

Escrito originalmente por Songbird:

Dunno where this whole "Remnant is weak" thing started. The only way they look weak to me is if you try to not have their units die or if you take Harvest Rector Flicker in circle one without something that will make you not just die for that. Bounty Stalker is insane, Big Sludge is insane, Molded is insane, Dregs are very good for a starter card (self-purging, chump blockers, trigger harvest, only one space, 0 energy units which makes them exceptional for triggering many artifacts, get to decent stats pretty quickly with reforming), stealth is insane, Intent on Death is insane, Flicker's Liquor basically makes every card in your hand cost 0 every single turn...

My last Remnant win had ten Spikedriver Colonies with Burnout 1 and 36x2 base damage, and if Rector Flicker reformed one it would gain 25x2 more damage, making clearing enemies trivial. For the boss I had a Big Sludge with twelve stacks of Multistrike thanks to repeatedly reforming an Impish Scholar to give me back a doublestack Onehorn's Tome (and make it cost 0 with Flicker's Liquor), which had 11 rounds of stealth to do over 3000 damage per round.

And any Remnant run where I get Bounty Stalker, I just win by having a unit that does over 100 damage and comes with stealth kill everything...

I've yet to get a run where Legion of Wax seemed too attractive, though, just because it takes up so much space and it needs upgrades to be worth that space. Seems like it could be good with some upgrades and Intent on Death, though.

Keep in mind that remnant received very, very major buffs across the board in the wild mutations update. Before then they had very serious, glaring issues.

[Ichthyic]

Escrito originalmente por Songbird:

Dunno where this whole "Remnant is weak" thing started. The only way they look weak to me is if you try to not have their units die or if you take Harvest Rector Flicker in circle one without something that will make you not just die for that. Bounty Stalker is insane, Big Sludge is insane, Molded is insane, Dregs are very good for a starter card (self-purging, chump blockers, trigger harvest, only one space, 0 energy units which makes them exceptional for triggering many artifacts, get to decent stats pretty quickly with reforming), stealth is insane, Intent on Death is insane, Flicker's Liquor basically makes every card in your hand cost 0 every single turn...

My last Remnant win had ten Spikedriver Colonies with Burnout 1 and 36x2 base damage, and if Rector Flicker reformed one it would gain 25x2 more damage, making clearing enemies trivial. For the boss I had a Big Sludge with twelve stacks of Multistrike thanks to repeatedly reforming an Impish Scholar to give me back a doublestack Onehorn's Tome (and make it cost 0 with Flicker's Liquor), which had 11 rounds of stealth to do over 3000 damage per round.

And any Remnant run where I get Bounty Stalker, I just win by having a unit that does over 100 damage and comes with stealth kill everything...

I've yet to get a run where Legion of Wax seemed too attractive, though, just because it takes up so much space and it needs upgrades to be worth that space. Seems like it could be good with some upgrades and Intent on Death, though.

don't comment on legion unless you really have played with it. you clearly haven't.

[Gentlest Giant]

Escrito originalmente por Ichthyic:

Escrito originalmente por Songbird:

Seems like it could be good with some upgrades and Intent on Death, though.

don't comment on legion unless you really have played with it. you clearly haven't.

"Seems like it could be good" is a pretty solid evaluation of Legion. It takes a lot of work and investment to pay off and if it doesn't, it's a clunky chonker that's difficult to get out of the way for better units.
No need to be this rude to somebody who is correct.

[Ichthyic]

no, you are not correct. that was my point. ignoring my point and repeating your same mistakes helps nothing.

[Feikki]

I really love legion of wax, it looks great on paper and when it works it kicks ass but it is very accident prone. Ability to recycle units so that they come back stronger is super powerful but legion interacts badly with that. It gets destroyed by burnout. In theory you can recycle it a few times and then it gets like burnout 3 and is more immune to burnout. But if you do that you need to keep an empty floor available at all times so when you recycle it you have a place for it. If you can't place it when it recycles you are toast because you run out of time to farm it. If you find the artifact that increases burnout it gets OP.

If you drop a fresh one with some boosts on a boss you can solo it. But in practice you die when it has suffered attrition and a boss attacks it when it is in 3rd stage at the beginning of boss combat.

What you want to do is get one OP monster and then duplicate it. Due to Legion taking so much space it isn't a great duplicate.

So yeah, it is great in a vacuum but has bad synergy with reforming and duplicate. That makes it very risky. If you can freeze one and drop it on the boss when it enters then great. Or if you can bother calculating how many waves are until the boss (I assume it is a fixed amount depending on the boss but I don't bother to find out that info) it can work great. Or you can just get lucky with the timing.

But melting and umbra are the clans that I can reliably win at ascension 25 so I don't really need to get lucky. I pick legion a lot because it is fun and chaotic but it is not better than the other OP choices for melting.

[Weekend Player]

He's a great boss killer, but weak otherwise at higher covenants.

Also, it's probably the unit that requires the most specific upgrades to work: multistrike and largestone plus double extinguish relic and/or card. The rage upgrade can work in some specific scenarios as well.

It's a rare unit that lacks consistency so I wouldn't say it is. It's just that when you pull off the perfect set up you are guaranteed to win and that can feels OP.

[Gentlest Giant]

Escrito originalmente por Ichthyic:

no, you are not correct. that was my point. ignoring my point and repeating your same mistakes helps nothing.

Your point? Mistakes? I see neither of either.
I guess the only point I could read from your post was something like "I disagree and want you to shut up." I mean, since I quoted you and called you rude, I addressed this point - the opposite of ignoring it?

If you are trying to argue that calling the Legion a situational card is a mistake, well, you have a hell of a mountain to climb in order to make a decent argument about that. Every single card is situational, to which the Legion is no exception.

[Ichthyic]

"Every single card is situational, to which the Legion is no exception."

so every card is the same then.

right. you've made yourself clear.

LOL

[Gentlest Giant]

Only insofar that 7 and 2000 are both numbers, which according to your level of comprehension would be the same.

This is silly.