Do Rogues ever get a 2nd attack in this game?

[Lampros]

If not, then I don't ever see a reason to pick them over a Lowlife Ranger for the pew-pew/skill monkey role.

[wendigo211]

Автор сообщения: psychotron666

5d6 + the damage of the weapon + Dex mod if using finesse weapon and dual attack if you feel like it. Yeah actually quite comparable to a second attack. Not to mention abilities like evasion, cunning action for free disengage and dash, uncanny dodge, etc on top of that. The most mobile class there is (monk needs to use a resource point to do the same thing a monk can do with a bonus action for free as many times as he wants).

If you're comparing it to the second attack, only the +5d6 (and the predator bonus if you take that spec) counts, since the Ranger (or whatever other class you're comparing to) also gets the damage of the weapon, dex mod etc. on their first attack as well as their second attack. You also have to consider that the Rogue has to be level 9 for that +5d6 sneak attack, I can get a second attack at level 5 and craft a lightbringer bow and buy bracers of archery by level 6 or 7. For damage at least it is behind the other options.

It's not a useless character, like the Fighter, but in this game at least, there are better options than the Rogue.

[Target]

Rogues are all about getting their sneak attack bonus either by hitting enemies next to an ally or attacking from being hidden. There sneak attack damage is great and as long as you focus on getting your sneak attack off they should be your most consistent damage dealers. Just beat the game with a rogue and can confirm they are very solid but I cant recomend the darkweaver subclass.

[Lampros]

Автор сообщения: Target

Rogues are all about getting their sneak attack bonus either by hitting enemies next to an ally or attacking from being hidden. There sneak attack damage is great and as long as you focus on getting your sneak attack off they should be your most consistent damage dealers. Just beat the game with a rogue and can confirm they are very solid but I cant recomend the darkweaver subclass.

I suspect you are wrong about Rogues being the "most consistent damage dealers." It's too bad that the game lacks a damage meter for the main campaign to conclude things definitively. I may test on a custom campaign though.

[Target]

Автор сообщения: Lampros

Автор сообщения: Target

Rogues are all about getting their sneak attack bonus either by hitting enemies next to an ally or attacking from being hidden. There sneak attack damage is great and as long as you focus on getting your sneak attack off they should be your most consistent damage dealers. Just beat the game with a rogue and can confirm they are very solid but I cant recomend the darkweaver subclass.

I suspect you are wrong about Rogues being the "most consistent damage dealers." It's too bad that the game lacks a damage meter for the main campaign to conclude things definitively. I may test on a custom campaign though.

Well it depends on how you measure it. Rogues can get their sneak attack every round potentially, where as most other classes have limited resources to deal high damage. Wizards will burn through the high level spells fast, same with clerics and paladins. The game does a decent job at pacing out bond fires so its nice to have a damage source that doesnt run out. If everyone is using everything in one fight, the rouge will be out paced (although still not useless) but there were several fights I got into where my other characters were all out of spell slots and the rogue was still stabbin. (particularly when the overland travel glitched and I didnt get spells back from resting.)

[Revan619]

Автор сообщения: wendigo211

Автор сообщения: psychotron666

5d6 + the damage of the weapon + Dex mod if using finesse weapon and dual attack if you feel like it. Yeah actually quite comparable to a second attack. Not to mention abilities like evasion, cunning action for free disengage and dash, uncanny dodge, etc on top of that. The most mobile class there is (monk needs to use a resource point to do the same thing a monk can do with a bonus action for free as many times as he wants).

If you're comparing it to the second attack, only the +5d6 (and the predator bonus if you take that spec) counts, since the Ranger (or whatever other class you're comparing to) also gets the damage of the weapon, dex mod etc. on their first attack as well as their second attack. You also have to consider that the Rogue has to be level 9 for that +5d6 sneak attack, I can get a second attack at level 5 and craft a lightbringer bow and buy bracers of archery by level 6 or 7. For damage at least it is behind the other options.

It's not a useless character, like the Fighter, but in this game at least, there are better options than the Rogue.

Rogue with a longbow can do weapon+dex+predator(2)+sneak+brancers+enchantment

d8+5+2+5d6+2+d8 (2d8+9+5d6). Not sure what the problem is. This damage is every round with no resources and I can choose to do it from stealth so I have advantage on attack rolls. There is also +3 to my attack on top of the proficiency and Dex mod.

Also the above is assuming I am not using poison which I most certainly am

[Wayward Raven]

In Solasta, ranger vs rogue is very lopsided in favor of ranger once ranger gets extra attack. At level 10, it's not even a contest:

Rogue: 1d8(4.5, longbow) + 1d10(5.5, stormbow) + 5 (dex) + 2 (bracers) + 5d6(17.5, sneak attack) + 4 (predator) + 3d6(11.5, poison) = 50

Ranger: 2x ( 1d8(4.5, longbow) + 1d10(5.5, stormbow) + 5 (dex) + 2 (bracers) + 1d6(3.5, hunter's mark) + 4 (dark slayer) + 4 (favored enemy) + 3d6 (11.5 poison) = 2 x 40 = 80

Even if you take away dark slayer and favored enemy, ranger still beats rogue 64 to 50. You'd have to also take away both Hunter's Mark and poison arrows for rogue to come out on top again at 34 vs 38.5. Stacking modifiers weigh damage output heavily in favor of extra attack.

The only level window where rogue slightly outperforms ranger is at levels 3 and 4 where both only have a single attack and the rogue has +2d6 sneak attack vs the ranger's +1d6 hunter's mark.

In response to the OP, rogues can get extra attacks from off-hand and haste. However, unlike PnP, you can't cheese haste action + ready to consistently get a second sneak attack on your opponent's turn. Rogues are weak in this game, lowlife ranger works better in most cases where you'd want a rogue.

[psychotron666]

Автор сообщения: Wayward Raven

In Solasta, ranger vs rogue is very lopsided in favor of ranger once ranger gets extra attack. At level 10, it's not even a contest:

Rogue: 1d8(4.5, longbow) + 1d10(5.5, stormbow) + 5 (dex) + 2 (bracers) + 5d6(17.5, sneak attack) + 4 (predator) + 3d6(11.5, poison) = 50

Ranger: 2x ( 1d8(4.5, longbow) + 1d10(5.5, stormbow) + 5 (dex) + 2 (bracers) + 1d6(3.5, hunter's mark) + 4 (dark slayer) + 4 (favored enemy) + 3d6 (11.5 poison) = 2 x 40 = 80

Even if you take away dark slayer and favored enemy, ranger still beats rogue 64 to 50. You'd have to also take away both Hunter's Mark and poison arrows for rogue to come out on top again at 34 vs 38.5. Stacking modifiers weigh damage output heavily in favor of extra attack.

The only level window where rogue slightly outperforms ranger is at levels 3 and 4 where both only have a single attack and the rogue has +2d6 sneak attack vs the ranger's +1d6 hunter's mark.

In response to the OP, rogues can get extra attacks from off-hand and haste. However, unlike PnP, you can't cheese haste action + ready to consistently get a second sneak attack on your opponent's turn. Rogues are weak in this game, lowlife ranger works better in most cases where you'd want a rogue.

But can the ranger dash after the attack? Can he disengage after the attack? Can he half the damage from an incoming attack? Can he half or negate the damage from fireballs and aoe dex saves?

[Lampros]

Автор сообщения: psychotron666

But can the ranger dash after the attack? Can he disengage after the attack? Can he half the damage from an incoming attack? Can he half or negate the damage from fireballs and aoe dex saves?

The discussion was strictly about damage potential thus far. I am not sure if you are bringing anything to the actual argument by introducing mobility or survivability tools that the Rogue adds. And if you are going the non-DPS line of argument, then frankly someone like me may say that not having to worry about food at all would negate anything the Rogue brings to the table.

[lucky]

Ranger has been by far the most DPS for me, but that's because I randomly found Lightbringer Bow and Souldrinker Dagger very early, might have only been level 3 (they are still the only weapons I've crafted because I don't have the reputation to buy primed weapons).

Now that I have haste, and Ranger still has all the good weapons, they do it all. I noticed it is possible to throw the dagger after shooting 3 times if you leave it offhand, so a single turn can get 4d6 just from hunter's mark.

[Revan619]

Автор сообщения: Wayward Raven

In Solasta, ranger vs rogue is very lopsided in favor of ranger once ranger gets extra attack. At level 10, it's not even a contest:

Rogue: 1d8(4.5, longbow) + 1d10(5.5, stormbow) + 5 (dex) + 2 (bracers) + 5d6(17.5, sneak attack) + 4 (predator) + 3d6(11.5, poison) = 50

Ranger: 2x ( 1d8(4.5, longbow) + 1d10(5.5, stormbow) + 5 (dex) + 2 (bracers) + 1d6(3.5, hunter's mark) + 4 (dark slayer) + 4 (favored enemy) + 3d6 (11.5 poison) = 2 x 40 = 80

Even if you take away dark slayer and favored enemy, ranger still beats rogue 64 to 50. You'd have to also take away both Hunter's Mark and poison arrows for rogue to come out on top again at 34 vs 38.5. Stacking modifiers weigh damage output heavily in favor of extra attack.

The only level window where rogue slightly outperforms ranger is at levels 3 and 4 where both only have a single attack and the rogue has +2d6 sneak attack vs the ranger's +1d6 hunter's mark.

In response to the OP, rogues can get extra attacks from off-hand and haste. However, unlike PnP, you can't cheese haste action + ready to consistently get a second sneak attack on your opponent's turn. Rogues are weak in this game, lowlife ranger works better in most cases where you'd want a rogue.

Should also add that you are losing the no damage on successful reflex save, half melee damage, bonus stealth and bonus sleight of hand features as well as the ability to disengage or dash as well as attack without having to waste turns to setup

[Babarigo]

Автор сообщения: Lampros

Автор сообщения: psychotron666

But can the ranger dash after the attack? Can he disengage after the attack? Can he half the damage from an incoming attack? Can he half or negate the damage from fireballs and aoe dex saves?

The discussion was strictly about damage potential thus far. I am not sure if you are bringing anything to the actual argument by introducing mobility or survivability tools that the Rogue adds. And if you are going the non-DPS line of argument, then frankly someone like me may say that not having to worry about food at all would negate anything the Rogue brings to the table.

Ranged rogue will have advantage on pretty much every attack thanks to stealth which means he is more likely to actually inflict the damage. The only place where it's quite harder to be stealthed are random encounters where the enemies suprise you.
The ranger has the +2 attack from the archery fighting style which worse than advantage unless IIRC you need to roll a 19.
Talking about damage without taking into account the capacity to first hit the enemy is pointless. Also having to make 2 attacks reduces the probability (hitting twice an attack that has a 80% hit chance is 64%) so even assuming that the rogue and the ranger have the same hit chance the accounted damage from the second hit should be lowered taking into account the probability of touching the target.

The survivability tools of the rogue do matter for damage. If an enemy comes at melee range you can, with the rogue, disengage with the bonus action, move and attack. With the ranger you have to use your action to disengage and be unable to attack or to take the risk of bring hit by an attack of opportunity and moving away from two enemies without disengaging can be very risky.
If you are attacked by an archer and a fireball in the same turn, the rogue will mitigate at least half of the damage thanks to uncanny dodge and evasion. On cataclysm taking the full damage in this situation can result in getting unconscious or at least being forced to drink a potion or use an action from your cleric or paladin to heal your ranger. The rogue will keep attacking.
The ranger also has some survivability tools like escape the horde or steel will but they are much weaker than what the rogue has.

I'm not saying that the rogue deals more damage than the ranger but survivability is a major factor to take into account when talking about damage dealing.

[Grumpy Old Dude]

Have to agree re the inclusion of survivability in the equation. After all, an incapicitated or dead character, deals absolutely 0 DPS.

[Lampros]

Автор сообщения: Grumpy Old Dude

Have to agree re the inclusion of survivability in the equation. After all, an incapicitated or dead character, deals absolutely 0 DPS.

Even survivability-wise, I am not sure things are so clear-cut. For instance, Rangers have higher a HP pool. Moreover, frankly, I have not seen survivability as an issue for a ranged character unless you play on the Cataclysm difficulty. (I cannot tell about that difficulty, since I have not tried it yet.) I've had zero deaths so far; and only two cases where characters were nearly killed, due to my not understanding that one of the boss fights required a certain type of resistances.

[Revan619]

Alternatively you can just play high elf wizard with the sellsword background. Longbow and Medium Armour from level 1. Can easily get 20+ until you reach level 5 you can do bow+dex for damage and swap to cantrips at level 5. Then you have all those wide range of wizard spells and bonus spells to teleport. Why be a Rogue or Ranger at all if you are just looking to do range DPS. /s

Hopefully OP has learned from this discussion both classes have uses inside and outside of combat as well as their own survivability. I know I have avoided some encounters in the game because my halfing Rogue made a charisma check which the ranger could not have. It is whatever you want in the party. Right now I enjoy Paladin, Rogue, Cleric and Wizard. Once they add Sorcerer I might try Swapping out three of the classes to see how Fighter (if they add more feats), Ranger and Sorcerer do compared to my usual line up.

[Ommamar]

It is interesting these discussion always center around rangers and rogues when as Revan619 showed any class in Solasta with the right back ground and build can cover the usual rogue scope. That being traps, locks and general sneakiness with the occasional chance for high burst damage to finish a fight.