Soulkiller is a Lie, & Alt is a Liar.

[Actalo]

Cyberpunk is this weird mix between trans-humanism and metaphysical meandering. On the one hand, you got this software program called "Soulkiller" which can make digitized copies of human personalities and on the other hand you have the metaphysical human Soul which is allegedly destroyed by this software.

I call bullsh*t.

If there is a Soul, an eternal vessel of man's divine essence, how can a piece of software affect it? By its nature, the Soul is the dominion of the Divine, either God or gods - but not men and certainly not man-made software.

The Soul is inextricably tied to its Earthly tether as long as that tether is alive. Even if Johnny 'takes the wheel' in V's mind, V's 'Soul' is still in the car, albeit in the back seat, or possibly the trunk.

When Alt kills V again, just like Dex did, she can copy V's mind but she cannot extract V's soul. Again, physical realm 'no affect' metaphysical realm. Whatever engram version of V she puts back in V's body will still be sharing the 'car' with the twice-died original V, the soul, still tethered to V's body.

And maybe that body dies in six months, or maybe it doesn't. Maybe it takes a few weeks or months for V's Soul to come to terms with this other V who's basically the same person... and maybe they unify. Who knows? The game leaves all rather ambiguous, and in my opnion, neither Alt nor Arasaka are trustworthy.

[lehuan5062]

"Soul" in "Soulkiller" is not the "metaphysical soul" / "eternal vessel of man's divine essence" / "dominion of the Divine" / "inextricably tied to its Earthly tether as long as that tether is alive". It is just a word Saka used to call the engram.

Soulkiller scan victim's brain, copy the mind and fry the brain. It does not have anything to do with the kind of "soul" you mentioned.

Soulkiller was built upon another software developed by Alt to scan someone's brain and store it. The frying part was forced to develop by Saka.

[Actalo]

There's a line of optional dialogue I think a lot of players miss in their first meeting with Alt. I'll paraphrase since I don't have the transcript but know it pretty well:

Alt: Explains the process of extracting both V's and Johnny's engram, disentangle them, and place V's engram back into their physical mind.

(This is the optional dialogue) V: Verifies in question if Alt is going to "flat-line me in order to save me".

Alt: Responds "yes".

To which Johnny interjects and protests saying V is supposed to just go back into their body, nothing changes. Alt corrects him saying that everything changes and that Soulkiller is TRUE to its name: while V's mind will be returned, their soul will be lost in the process. In other words, there is no continuity of character, V will be gone and in their place an engram copy of them lives on.

Hence, my argument. Alt is lying, she can scan and copy V's mind but she cannot affect V's soul.

[Omnicide]

Doesn't have to be a lie, might just be a difference of belief here, since 'soul' means different things to different people. You would have to establish what Alt thinks that is. I think her use here just attempts to make it clear what is happening, your neural network is gonna be melted while it is approximated into a digital copy, and then your grey matter is going to be rewritten to mirror this chatGPT interpretation of who you were. It's not a terrible stretch to assume god's plan is done with you at that point and whatever you are now is on it's own.

Even worse you might just be emulated directly from the chip from now on while the brain remains some smoldering mess of Vonny Silvergonk. Would partially explain why V is still dying. Good luck with the metaphysics on that one. Whether V would still have a soul, let alone the same soul, comes down to how (if at all) any of that works.

Maybe the meat and potatoes is in the body, your gut bacteria and genes carry the memory of who you were or perhaps some other mumbo jumbo. You hear stories of heart donor recipients getting weird traces of the donor's personality or habits. All very scientifically explainable, or is it?

[Pyromaiden]

Messaggio originale di Omnicide:

Doesn't have to be a lie, might just be a difference of belief here, since 'soul' means different things to different people. You would have to establish what Alt thinks that is. I think her use here just attempts to make it clear what is happening, your neural network is gonna be melted while it is approximated into a digital copy, and then your grey matter is going to be rewritten to mirror this chatGPT interpretation of who you were. It's not a terrible stretch to assume god's plan is done with you at that point and whatever you are now is on it's own.

Even worse you might just be emulated directly from the chip from now on while the brain remains some smoldering mess of Vonny Silvergonk. Would partially explain why V is still dying. Good luck with the metaphysics on that one. Whether V would still have a soul, let alone the same soul, comes down to how (if at all) any of that works.

Maybe the meat and potatoes is in the body, your gut bacteria and genes carry the memory of who you were or perhaps some other mumbo jumbo. You hear stories of heart donor recipients getting weird traces of the donor's personality or habits. All very scientifically explainable, or is it?

"Vonny Silvergonk" is both hilarious and clever, kudos to you for that one. If I had any points I'd give you an award.

[Gamefever]

Messaggio originale di lehuan5062:

"Soul" in "Soulkiller" is not the "metaphysical soul" / "eternal vessel of man's divine essence" / "dominion of the Divine" / "inextricably tied to its Earthly tether as long as that tether is alive". It is just a word Saka used to call the engram.

Soulkiller scan victim's brain, copy the mind and fry the brain. It does not have anything to do with the kind of "soul" you mentioned.

Soulkiller was built upon another software developed by Alt to scan someone's brain and store it. The frying part was forced to develop by Saka.

Also the Soulkiller was not perfect copy of the individual.

Even crazier still,
The Soulkiller that V and Jacky steal, well uh that is the original prototype.
Well the thing is Johnny was not supposed to be on there we all know that much from the video game.
How did Johnny end up on the Soulkiller?

Well,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPntd6Ox3KM

Turns out that all the events Johnny told you were probably true in his head right but Johnny is also remembering stuff that Blackhand did as if it were his own actions.
In fact Adam doesnt recognize Johnnies name when V taunts him about just before offing him at the end of the game.

What we got to see from Johnnies perspective at the beginning of the game was a highly edited version of events that places all the blame on Johnnies feet very convinent if Arasake ever had to present it as evidence.

Anyway really couldnt keep that video to just myself.

As it was deployed the Silverhand we get in the game is not a perfect representation of Johnny. Hince soulkiller, because V becomes an imperfect clone.

[NorthernDavid]

There are plenty of hints that Silverhand's memories are not accurate if you know the lore. One is even included with the bonus items with the game itself but not easy to notice. The Cyberpunk 2020 rulebook is in the bonus items. The Cyberpunk 2020 Rulebook has a short story in it called Never Fade Away. That short story describes the attack Silverhand and Rogue make on Arasaka to rescue Alt. In the story the big Arasaka goon Akria, is killed by Alt before Silverhand and Rogue reach her. She controls some of the computer controlled guns in the room after they upload her. In the memory you see of this event in 2077 Akria is alive for you to fight...

[Defective Dopamine Pez Dispenser]

Essentially as others said above, my personal headcanon for all of this is basically that discontinuity of the mind creates a Transporter Paradox and Ship of Theseus situation, and the copied or recreated engrams are not the original person anymore, but a conscious system that from its perspective believes (erroneously) that it is. Complete with inaccurate/corrupted/intentionally changed/whatever the case may be memories.

This also handily sidesteps the metaphysics to some extent because we can always just say (if one believes in such a concept) that the "soul" of the person is not what is copied or corrupted, but purely a programmatic engram that from its own perspective is the person, but is not the "soul." The "soul" can be seen as either not being a real thing (if one doesn't believe in that concept to begin with,) or as being "somewhere else" (wherever one's own metaphysical beliefs would place it upon departure from the corporeal body.)

TLDR: Johnny's not a reliable narrator, and neither is anyone else who's been subjected to and "copied" by the Soulkiller. At least that's how I conveniently explain it all away to myself lol.

[NorthernDavid]

No one in Cyberpunk is a reliable narrator. Plenty of options and reasons for characters to be unreliable. Some could not know things (Like Vic giving you a deadline on the chip killing you, which he does admit right off is his best estimate, not a guaranteed written in stone truth), some could believe someone else's lies, others could lie, and still others can be honestly mistaken. Johnny just takes it to an extreme where he becomes an unreliable narrator even to himself, and you get a direct view of it.

[Omnicide]

Unreliable narrators are "almost by definition first person."

Johnny is one because you see his story through his eyes.