Cyberpunk 2077

Cyberpunk 2077

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maul Oct 16, 2023 @ 6:03am
Phantom Liberty has turned the Blackwall into magic?
Even though the concept of the Blackwall exists in a digital cyberspace, Songbird radiates 'energy' which leaves actual traces in the real world that V can find, with a type of electricity that can physically affect real objects: https://youtu.be/b2BWJzGv4M4?t=207

The Erebus weapon also says that its rounds are "infused with the dark energy from beyond the Blackwall."

How does this physically make sense within the worldbuilding of Cyberpunk?
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BlueBangkok Oct 16, 2023 @ 6:05am 
Except the traces are only visible to V due to their link with Songbird, the game makes it quite clear that it's not literally a physical effect, it's just a manifestation that V sees. The surroundings are thrashed due to the hacking, overloading, and subsequent explosions of tech, not through some mystical force.
maul Oct 16, 2023 @ 6:07am 
Originally posted by BlueBangkok:
Except the traces are only visible to V due to their link with Songbird, the game makes it quite clear that it's not literally a physical effect, it's just a manifestation that V sees. The surroundings are thrashed due to the hacking, overloading, and subsequent explosions of tech, not through some mystical force.

Watch the video I linked (at 3:27 - Steam removed the timestamp I guess), the electricity is affecting real objects. And how do you unwittingly leave "residue" behind in the real world that can only be picked up digitally? What is the mechanism for that?

And again, we literally have a gun in the game which says its rounds are "infused with the dark energy from beyond the Blackwall."
Last edited by maul; Oct 16, 2023 @ 6:09am
BlueBangkok Oct 16, 2023 @ 6:18am 
Originally posted by maul:
Watch the video I linked (at 3:27 - Steam removed the timestamp I guess), the electricity is affecting real objects. And how do you unwittingly leave "residue" behind in the real world that can only be picked up digitally? What is the mechanism for that?

And again, we literally have a gun in the game which says its rounds are "infused with the dark energy from beyond the Blackwall."

Yet, the dialogue makes it very clear that the manifestations are digital traces. Electricity can be explained, again, by hacking.

I agree that the Erebus' weapon description is confusing, but, the in-game lore says that the gun is housing a rogue AI from beyond the Blackwall, therefore its rounds have a chance to upload hacks to enemies (which is how it actually works gameplay-wise). Which is a good enough explanation for me personally.
BlueBangkok Oct 16, 2023 @ 6:19am 
By the way the gun itself is much better choice than the cyberware OS, imho xD
Foolswalkin Oct 16, 2023 @ 6:24am 
Weird that it's not a smart weapon, given how much the patch unified smart weapons and hacking.
maul Oct 16, 2023 @ 6:32am 
Originally posted by BlueBangkok:
Originally posted by maul:
Watch the video I linked (at 3:27 - Steam removed the timestamp I guess), the electricity is affecting real objects. And how do you unwittingly leave "residue" behind in the real world that can only be picked up digitally? What is the mechanism for that?

And again, we literally have a gun in the game which says its rounds are "infused with the dark energy from beyond the Blackwall."

Yet, the dialogue makes it very clear that the manifestations are digital traces. Electricity can be explained, again, by hacking.

I agree that the Erebus' weapon description is confusing, but, the in-game lore says that the gun is housing a rogue AI from beyond the Blackwall, therefore its rounds have a chance to upload hacks to enemies (which is how it actually works gameplay-wise). Which is a good enough explanation for me personally.

So simply by touching a random railing or floor Songbird is automatically "hacking" it somehow? How do you hack a piece of metal or concrete? You have to see how this kind of explanation doesn't make any sense.

Everything that's happening, including objects being moved by it (3:27 timestamp), residue within the real world, and a gun's rounds being 'infused' indicates that there's some kind of actual energy involved. Trying to come up with solely digital explanations simply doesn't match.

I can chalk it up to it just being a gamey thing, but with everything else I can usually suspend my disbelief - I think about this at all though and it falls apart.
Rhapsody Oct 16, 2023 @ 6:39am 
The dark energy thing is just flavor text.

"The fruits of their labor resulted in a weapon that uses artificial intelligence to hack the combat cyberware of the targets it shoots."
Bib Sep 8, 2024 @ 12:43pm 
It's just the rule of cool being prioritized over logic for some awesome scenes by fun-loving devs.

I mean, if you really wanted to somewhat rationalize it, you could theorize about how the Blackwall isn't just a normal AI-powered firewall, but some new form of digital tech using a formerly unknown energy, but then you've created a classic scifi magic system.

Or it IS just V hallucinating due to the link with Songbird and that's how she "perceives" using the Blackwall, but this wouldn't explain the effect on non-digital objects
Last edited by Bib; Sep 8, 2024 @ 12:44pm
Mander Sep 8, 2024 @ 1:32pm 
Originally posted by maul:
Originally posted by BlueBangkok:

Yet, the dialogue makes it very clear that the manifestations are digital traces. Electricity can be explained, again, by hacking.

I agree that the Erebus' weapon description is confusing, but, the in-game lore says that the gun is housing a rogue AI from beyond the Blackwall, therefore its rounds have a chance to upload hacks to enemies (which is how it actually works gameplay-wise). Which is a good enough explanation for me personally.

So simply by touching a random railing or floor Songbird is automatically "hacking" it somehow? How do you hack a piece of metal or concrete? You have to see how this kind of explanation doesn't make any sense.

Everything that's happening, including objects being moved by it (3:27 timestamp), residue within the real world, and a gun's rounds being 'infused' indicates that there's some kind of actual energy involved. Trying to come up with solely digital explanations simply doesn't match.

I can chalk it up to it just being a gamey thing, but with everything else I can usually suspend my disbelief - I think about this at all though and it falls apart.

You have to picture how stupidly dense and stratified technology is in the Cyberpunk world.
Everything we see hides an electronic subsystem, more o less. On the Net, the data transfer is dozen if not hundreds of time more dense than our internet. It is why true netrunning needs a braindance like technology to be done, connected straight to the brain. And why for example, we can find pistols with AI.
In short, in the Cyberpunk world, the electronic structure is everywhere, chronic collateral of the human civilization. Permeating every aspect of our creations.
The virtual, is a thousand time wider and deeper than base reality. It is tens of thousand time faster and with million more data carried every instant.
The Ais Songbird is channeling beyond the Blackwall see all of this, at the same time, and can interact with every aspect of it, included those parts the DATAKRASH erased or put beyond human use.
Can they bend concrete? No.
But manipulating the gas pipeline beneath the slab of concrete, creating a focused explosion and producing a similar effect? Quite doable. It is just a matter of calculations. And they are good at it.
Short-circuiting an entire redundant subnet of an old and abandoned bunker, just to produce a very specific sound? Done and done.
You’re dealing with inhuman intelligences controlling everything electronic. And in the cyberpunk world, everything is at least electric, and much is also electronic.
Last edited by Mander; Sep 8, 2024 @ 1:33pm
mistahbungle Sep 8, 2024 @ 7:43pm 
'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'
I just view it as similar to the tarot arcana V can see, which people have interpreted in a variety of different ways (usually involving the Relic.) There's a lot in the game that seems to very intentionally ride the line between physical rationalization and the metaphysical.

A lot of it can be chalked up to just V having the Relic in their head of course, but not all of it, I would argue. Misty's readings of the arcana we find being so applicable to what's happening can really only be physically explained away by chalking it up to coincidence and confirmation bias.

Which isn't terribly different from tarot in real life - you have your dyed in the wool believers in it, and people who dismiss it entirely as just that, even when it seems to eerily nail things. Or, as some theorize, you could attribute the arcana to some trace of Jackie's consciousness being unconsciously filtered through V's mind or what have you, due to his having carried the Relic before his death.

The Black Wall itself is said to have created "haunted" data, for example. One isn't forced to take that literally of course, but the point is, there's a ton in the game (and in Cyberpunk lore) that clearly tries to evoke mysticism or metaphysics in terms of how characters think about and perceive and describe things, even if we as the player might rather explain them away more rationally or technologically or what have you.

That's why we hear the invocation of words like "soul" or "ghost" used interchangeably with things like engram etc. It's also not unlike other works in the cyberpunk literary or film tradition where you have a technological potential basis for things, but the characters discuss or perceive them (or it's presented to us for artistic reasons) as being mystical, or pseudo-mystical. Or at least metaphysical.

The simplest way to explain it away for suspension of disbelief purposes though if you want a strictly physical realism explanation, is what Mander said above. And, I would add, combining that with the possibility that certain of those processes are happening unconsciously potentially, or in ways that simply aren't intuitively perceived by us. That doesn't mean they aren't happening. Just that V's experience of them (remember that everything we experience in the game - which isn't always honest or reliable - is happening within V's perception) may not explicitly include them.

That's how I deal with it, at least.
Last edited by Defective Dopamine Pez Dispenser; Sep 8, 2024 @ 8:35pm
Actalo Sep 8, 2024 @ 9:22pm 
"The daemons sing in Aramaic," Maximum Mike.

There's quite a lot metaphysical leanings in the game - the idea that the "soul" or mind can venture into the Net separate from the body, digitized psyches that can reanimate a neurally dead body, it's all pretty fringe to me.

That said, the Blackwall itself is an AI designed to seek-and-destroy other AIs, which, given how the game treats the idea that AI can be sentient comparable to human, means the Blackwall, once entering the CNS through a person's cyberware, could kill anyone or any AI. The weird residue left over is something I thing only V can see, like the tarot graffiti.
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Date Posted: Oct 16, 2023 @ 6:03am
Posts: 12