Is Monk the most hated class or something?

[Muado 93]

I hardly see people requesting that class for this game, it's always overshadowed by "When's bard being announced?", "Where's Dragonborn?", "Paladin when?", etc.

So what gives? Why do people give monks the cold shoulder?

[KeepCleaving]

Messaggio originale di Pan Darius Kairos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iAPd3UeXMc&t=1380s

I knew you were gonna reference that, Pan. That is a terrible build until lvl 15+. Even worse to play starting at lvl 1. They played that at lvl 20.
We won't get past 10.

[KeepCleaving]

Messaggio originale di Pumis:

Messaggio originale di KeepCleaving:

Dood, I saw this! Marisha stunlocked the crap outta everyone. deflected Percy's gunshots, grappled Vax and shoved his head in lava cuz blur cloak. Pretty epic fight. But alas, we'll never get to that high level. I'm hoping Larian can make monk more than a stunning strike machine.

one can get lucky. Critical role is well known from just being actors who generally just break the rules constantly and have prewritten scripts. Not just that but their builds are generally poorly optimized. If averages are taken into account like Treantmonk had, then it shows totally different picture. Against competent player you would need to be extremely lucky to win.

Also the monk was homebrew....

no. The monk vs a single target is just good. There is nothing homebrew about stunning strike, deflect arrows, grapple, sentinel and monk speed.
The homebrew subclass has little to do with with winning vs other popular subclasses by far.

Stunning strike is just very powerful, and sadly the power of the entire class.

[KeepCleaving]

Messaggio originale di Pumis:

Messaggio originale di KeepCleaving:

no. The monk vs a single target is just good. There is nothing homebrew about stunning strike, deflect arrows, grapple, sentinel and monk speed.
The homebrew subclass has little to do with with winning vs other popular subclasses by far.

Stunning strike is just very powerful, and sadly the power of the entire class.

Not really, I looked up the team they were against. Extremely poorly optimized foes.
Also monks provide nothing special vs single target that is somehow special. There are actual spells that do far more than stunning strike, deflect arrows and anyone can grapple and pick sentinel. Heck even the speed isn't anything better. For example what is the monk going to do against levitating mage?

Stunning strike is actually very bad. First you need to hit target and then force them to do CON saving throw... You do realize that most players including monsters have a lot of CON and even proficiency since it's useful to pick in any game? Meaning that you will only succeed with stunning someone 1/3 out of the time unless you get extremely lucky. Fun fact these numbers are actually based on people keeping track on her usage on KI points and the success rate. Not to mention that you need to put ASI points to increase the DC for saving throw... meaning that it's ASI points away from DEX that you need to hit people and do damage.

Edit:
I'm not going to watch whole 4hour long video so can you point out the levels they had at the time and I can demonstrate how other classes can vastly outperform than the monk had if they were optimally build?

lvl 17. since I did watch the video, they were all optimised just fine against each other. Stunning strike can be used for every attack that hits on a turn, providing you have the ki. a player saving 4-5 attacks per round is rare. You're not going to cast a spell that gives 4 saving throw chances a turn. levitating enemy?? Throw monk weapon, with stunning strike. (yes, you can stunning strike with a thrown weapon). Treantmonk doesn't discuss the niche ability for a monk to shut down a single target. Because it's a pretty poor not fun niche. You basically become a stunbot and that's it.
To make it clear. This is not about "outperforming" It's widely known that monk's aren't strong in damage, utility or mass control of any kind. But they do have the best single target shutdown which just so happens to make them very good in a pvp scenario. When you combine that with exceptional speed, it works in the monk's favor. I really do suggest watching the video instead of making a spreadsheet.

[Geawiel]

Messaggio originale di Pumis:

Problem with monks is that they really don't offer anything to the team. They don't do the best damage. They aren't the best "tanks" either due to low hit dice and generally low AC.
They are pretty good at beginning with their free extra attacks, but it doesn't scale as well as in older editions.

I'm not so sure about that, though we're only level 8? (we haven't been able to play in a few months).

We have a monk in the party. She's a flurry of fury. Lock down a caster? She's got it. Go run to help someone else in trouble? She's there in, usually, one turn, no opportunity attacks. She puts out good damage. Her and my (updated, though a bit awkwardly, to 5e) Black Gaurd are the melee dealers. She can tank with me, hers is just from reactions and Ki points. Mine is pure armor. She is the bane of the DM. Who, hysterically, is also her spouse.

I want paladin the most, but I'm also anxious to see monks.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Messaggio originale di the_hip_cat:

Messaggio originale di Pumis:

Problem with monks is that they really don't offer anything to the team. They don't do the best damage. They aren't the best "tanks" either due to low hit dice and generally low AC.
They are pretty good at beginning with their free extra attacks, but it doesn't scale as well as in older editions.

I'm not so sure about that, though we're only level 8? (we haven't been able to play in a few months).

We have a monk in the party. She's a flurry of fury. Lock down a caster? She's got it. Go run to help someone else in trouble? She's there in, usually, one turn, no opportunity attacks. She puts out good damage. Her and my (updated, though a bit awkwardly, to 5e) Black Gaurd are the melee dealers. She can tank with me, hers is just from reactions and Ki points. Mine is pure armor. She is the bane of the DM. Who, hysterically, is also her spouse.

I want paladin the most, but I'm also anxious to see monks.

The "mOnKs r bAD huRR DuRR" crowd are the one's who run spreadsheets of DPR on every class and then declare that the top 5 are the only "viable" builds in D&D.

Don't listen to them, D&D is about far more than just DPR. Plus, some Monk builds aren't that far off anyway, particularly when multiclassing.

That said, Monk's do lack...something. I feel they are a bit underbaked and the Ki system needs some fine tuning to make them better.

Perhaps, like with the Ranger, we'll see Larian make some improvements to the Monk that could even make it to the new tabletop rules when 5.5 rolls out.

We should post our ideas on how to improve the Monk here.

[Geawiel]

Messaggio originale di Pan Darius Kairos:

Messaggio originale di the_hip_cat:

I'm not so sure about that, though we're only level 8? (we haven't been able to play in a few months).

We have a monk in the party. She's a flurry of fury. Lock down a caster? She's got it. Go run to help someone else in trouble? She's there in, usually, one turn, no opportunity attacks. She puts out good damage. Her and my (updated, though a bit awkwardly, to 5e) Black Gaurd are the melee dealers. She can tank with me, hers is just from reactions and Ki points. Mine is pure armor. She is the bane of the DM. Who, hysterically, is also her spouse.

I want paladin the most, but I'm also anxious to see monks.

The "mOnKs r bAD huRR DuRR" crowd are the one's who run spreadsheets of DPR on every class and then declare that the top 5 are the only "viable" builds in D&D.

Don't listen to them, D&D is about far more than just DPR. Plus, some Monk builds aren't that far off anyway, particularly when multiclassing.

That said, Monk's do lack...something. I feel they are a bit underbaked and the Ki system needs some fine tuning to make them better.

Perhaps, like with the Ranger, we'll see Larian make some improvements to the Monk that could even make it to the new tabletop rules when 5.5 rolls out.

We should post our ideas on how to improve the Monk here.

Definitely agree that they're almost there, like they do lack something. It's like remembering something on the tip of your tongue. It's right there.

The one thing I did notice is the Ki points. When they run out, the class is only 50% of their Ki point selves. They do last a while though. Ours can make hers seem to last forever. Our party is large though, and she doesn't have to blow through as many as she would in a regular size party.

It'd be a hard balance to make, to make Ki self, and post Ki self not be equal, and make them OP.

I think they may work well, as is, in BG3 though. Rests are so plentiful, that it's going to be really easy to replenish Ki points. Depending on how the reactions are going to work, they may even end up a little OP.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

I think Ki would be cooler if it was something you built up throughout combat, like a charge.

For example (just to keep this simple), landing a successful strike (or Flurry of Blows) could gain you a Ki charge, which would make your next attack stronger or something, or unlock another ability that you spend Ki on.

This would then have the Monk 'balancing' (!) building up Ki to charge their attacks, and then spending it either on more powerful combos, or losing a point when they missed an attack.

I admit the idea is a bit 'video gamey', but then a lot of D&D is now these days. But I do think something like this would be a slight improvement over what they do now.

They probably also need a larger move list. If you're going to make a martial arts based class, then you really need an extensive list of martial arts moves.

[Panic Fire]

Messaggio originale di Tinball:

First edition Monk - your speed doubled from level 1 to level 17. You gain upto 8-32 dmg for open hand strikes. You get a whole slew of bits and bobs along the way. Lastly, you get the title Grandmaster of Flowers at level 17. I still never played monk.

https://idiscepolidellamanticora.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/tsr2010-players-handbook.pdf

5e monk is mechanically underwhelming to play as a solo class. They need to spice it up a bit. Add a couple more options or class features. Otherwise you are going to have to multi-class to make it more interesting.

RP wise - if being a Monk is your thing, then that's your thing.

Circle Kick would be a nice addition to monk. Pay 1 ki on a successful attack and perform a circle kick on all enemies within attack range of the monk. Also maybe a feature that allows monks to add "reach" to the quarterstaff.

[GrandMajora]

Messaggio originale di Pan Darius Kairos:

I think Ki would be cooler if it was something you built up throughout combat, like a charge.

For example (just to keep this simple), landing a successful strike (or Flurry of Blows) could gain you a Ki charge, which would make your next attack stronger or something, or unlock another ability that you spend Ki on.

That's kind of how it works in D&D Online. Monks built up Ki by performing various combo sequences, and then used it to perform various finishing moves on the enemy.

Was kind of stressful to manage, because the Ki would gradually deplete itself, if you didn't keep the charge going. Monk players had to constantly be doing something in combat, making it a poor choice for beginners to play.

[KeepCleaving]

Messaggio originale di Pumis:

Messaggio originale di KeepCleaving:

lvl 17. since I did watch the video, they were all optimised just fine against each other. Stunning strike can be used for every attack that hits on a turn, providing you have the ki. a player saving 4-5 attacks per round is rare. You're not going to cast a spell that gives 4 saving throw chances a turn. levitating enemy?? Throw monk weapon, with stunning strike. (yes, you can stunning strike with a thrown weapon). Treantmonk doesn't discuss the niche ability for a monk to shut down a single target. Because it's a pretty poor not fun niche. You basically become a stunbot and that's it.
To make it clear. This is not about "outperforming" It's widely known that monk's aren't strong in damage, utility or mass control of any kind. But they do have the best single target shutdown which just so happens to make them very good in a pvp scenario. When you combine that with exceptional speed, it works in the monk's favor. I really do suggest watching the video instead of making a spreadsheet.

At level 17 casters can use wall of force to trap monk and then finish him with feeblemind by turning monk into braindead. Even more so if divination wizard since they can forcefully force low saving throw.

They weren't optimized I looked at their levels and classes they multiclassed into. In fact complete disaster if you look at it from perspective of min max.

"Stunning strike can be used for every attack that hits on a turn,"
Consumes lot of KI, also it's 4 attacks. However it attacks con save. Casters have habit of getting feat that gives profiency in con checks.

Stunning strike on levitation?
Stunning Strike PHB p76[–]
Starting at 5th level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent's body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn.

MELEE WEAPON ATTACK.

" Treantmonk doesn't discuss the niche ability for a monk to shut down a single target."
He literally mentions stunning strike and why it sucks in his video and even provides math that proves his claim correct.

"When you combine that with exceptional speed, it works in the monk's favor."
Other classes are faster.

You're forgetting optional rules and Kensei monk allows for any monk weapon to stun strike, Treant Monk mentions this. I'm surprised you didn't notice.

Feeblemind does nothing to the monk except for the dmg. Why would you bother?
Force wall? you do realise you can't target anyone behind a force wall right? It's total cover (Jeremy Crawford explains thus) . A monk can run up the wall, teleport to your shadow out of the wall etc. What makes you think that you're going to win initiative vs a monk? All a monk has to do is hit you with a quivering palm and you die. And no, a lot of casters don't have a feat that increases their con saves, there are 2 feats. One only gives advantage of concentration saves (not constitution saves) and resilient that can give proficiency in con saves. So nope, it's not that common or formidable in any way.

So your idea of trapping a monk in a wall of force and Feebleminding is both incorrect and a foolish use of spells.

[Panic Fire]

Messaggio originale di KeepCleaving:

Messaggio originale di Pumis:

At level 17 casters can use wall of force to trap monk and then finish him with feeblemind by turning monk into braindead. Even more so if divination wizard since they can forcefully force low saving throw.

They weren't optimized I looked at their levels and classes they multiclassed into. In fact complete disaster if you look at it from perspective of min max.

"Stunning strike can be used for every attack that hits on a turn,"
Consumes lot of KI, also it's 4 attacks. However it attacks con save. Casters have habit of getting feat that gives profiency in con checks.

Stunning strike on levitation?
Stunning Strike PHB p76[–]
Starting at 5th level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent's body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn.

MELEE WEAPON ATTACK.

" Treantmonk doesn't discuss the niche ability for a monk to shut down a single target."
He literally mentions stunning strike and why it sucks in his video and even provides math that proves his claim correct.

"When you combine that with exceptional speed, it works in the monk's favor."
Other classes are faster.

You're forgetting optional rules and Kensei monk allows for any monk weapon to stun strike, Treant Monk mentions this. I'm surprised you didn't notice.

Feeblemind does nothing to the monk except for the dmg. Why would you bother?
Force wall? you do realise you can't target anyone behind a force wall right? It's total cover (Jeremy Crawford explains thus) . A monk can run up the wall, teleport to your shadow out of the wall etc. What makes you think that you're going to win initiative vs a monk? All a monk has to do is hit you with a quivering palm and you die. And no, a lot of casters don't have a feat that increases their con saves, there are 2 feats. One only gives advantage of concentration saves (not constitution saves) and resilient that can give proficiency in con saves. So nope, it's not that common or formidable in any way.

So your idea of trapping a monk in a wall of force and Feebleminding is both incorrect and a foolish use of spells.

Sort of. Crawford said that Wall of Force provides full cover for the creature though you can still see it. So attack spells such as chill touch or firebolt can't obviously hit the creature. However Feeblemind simply requires sight of the creature and Wall of Force as far as the information says is see through. Thus you could very well target the the creature in the wall of force. At least that's what the rules lay out.

Casters generally need less stat build up than other classes (Casting Stat + Constitution) As well many casters do pick up Resilient Constitution as well as Crossbow Expert or Gunner.

[KeepCleaving]

Jeremy crawford states that you can't hit anything with a spell that has total cover. He did a podcast on spell cast targeting that covers this as well.

[KeepCleaving]

Messaggio originale di Pumis:

Messaggio originale di KeepCleaving:

You're forgetting optional rules and Kensei monk allows for any monk weapon to stun strike, Treant Monk mentions this. I'm surprised you didn't notice.

Feeblemind does nothing to the monk except for the dmg. Why would you bother?
Force wall? you do realise you can't target anyone behind a force wall right? It's total cover (Jeremy Crawford explains thus) . A monk can run up the wall, teleport to your shadow out of the wall etc. What makes you think that you're going to win initiative vs a monk? All a monk has to do is hit you with a quivering palm and you die. And no, a lot of casters don't have a feat that increases their con saves, there are 2 feats. One only gives advantage of concentration saves (not constitution saves) and resilient that can give proficiency in con saves. So nope, it's not that common or formidable in any way.

So your idea of trapping a monk in a wall of force and Feebleminding is both incorrect and a foolish use of spells.

"You're forgetting optional rules and Kensei monk allows for any monk weapon to stun strike, Treant Monk mentions this. I'm surprised you didn't notice.
"
https://5e.tools/classes.html#monk_phb,state:sub-kensei-xge=b1

Now you're just lying.
I see nothing about changing rule of the stunning fist. Just that you can turn any weapon into monk weapon. Stunning fist is about melee attack, not about ranged attack.

"Feeblemind does nothing to the monk except for the dmg."
Literally turns into braindead.

"you do realise you can't target anyone behind a force wall right?"
You can target, you just can't shoot or go through it.
However you can cast spells beforehand to the area and then use it. Either the case you can trap the monk and make insane setups while he is stuck there.

"A monk can run up the wall"
You do realize that force wall can be turned into shape of dome? You're acting as if run up the wall is somehow special and only monks can do.

"eleport to your shadow out of the wall etc. "
Can't teleport from there. Literally explained by the spell.

"What makes you think that you're going to win initiative vs a monk?"
Battlewizard has higher initiative plus they can take alert feat while monk has to put all points to ASI due to being mad.

"All a monk has to do is hit you with a quivering palm and you die."
Only if they play open palm... so are they Kensei or open palm monks? Do you even know how rules of this game work? And even in such case it isn't insta death. You may want to read the actual ability.

"And no, a lot of casters don't have a feat that increases their con saves,"
Rofl....
https://5e.tools/feats.html#resilient_phb

" And no, a lot of casters don't have a feat that increases their con saves, there are 2 feats. One only gives advantage of concentration saves (not constitution saves) and resilient that can give proficiency in con saves."
You do realize that you just proved me correct while claiming that I was wrong? :DD

You can absolutely teleport out of a wall of force, you just can't go through it, via mistystep for example.
Edit: my bad, misty step counts as a teleport, so it does work according to the sage advice.
How are you casting something in the area before wall of force? This is a lot of unrealistic meta gaming.

you also realise that getting 1 or 2 of those feats, sacrifices feats and asi's that casters would also deem "optimised"? and thus not optimised by your words.

Also what makes you think as a wizard you even LEARNED wall of force or any of these spells?

But alas, I'm still winning, watch the video and see for yourself. All you have is guesswork.
And again, jeremy crawford explicity states that you can't target spells through wall of force as it "blocks line of sight" sight = spells that rely on seeing a creature.

[KeepCleaving]

Messaggio originale di Pumis:

Messaggio originale di KeepCleaving:

You can absolutely teleport out of a wall of force, you just can't go through it, via mistystep for example.

How are you casting something in the area before wall of force? This is a lot of unrealistic meta gaming.

you also realise that getting 1 or 2 of those feats, sacrifices feats and asi's that casters would also deem "optimised"? and thus not optimised by your words.

Also what makes you think as a wizard you even LEARNED wall of force or any of these spells?

But alas, I'm still winning, watch the video and see for yourself. All you have is guesswork.
And again, jeremy crawford explicity states that you can't target spells through wall of force as it "blocks line of sight" sight = spells that rely on seeing a creature.

"Nothing can physically pass through the wall. It is immune to all damage and can't be dispelled by dispel magic. A disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however. The wall also extends into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel through the wall."

Regargless how you intrept that... You now have somehow 3 monk sub-classes being used same time. Kensei, open palm and shadow. Making things worse... With shadow druid you actually need to have conditions correct for teleportation. You're assuming that there is shadow big enough for that.
Not to mention... There are other means for wizards just to trap you than wall of force.
PS... your monk doesn't know misty step.

"How are you casting something in the area before wall of force? This is a lot of unrealistic meta gaming."
You do realize that wizards can literally stop the time and make preparements for 1d4+1 turns as long as they aren't directly causing harm on you during the time stop?
They don't even need wall of force... they can just stop time and do whatever they want.

"you also realise that getting 1 or 2 of those feats, sacrifices feats and asi's that casters would also deem "optimised"? and thus not optimised by your words."
Yes... and both of those feats are extremely important for casters and very common picks. It's not much of a sacrifice for casters which seek to have their casting stat at max. Meanwhile for monk... You need to have two stats max... Dex and wisdom. Meaning that you don't really have luxury for extra feats.

"Also what makes you think as a wizard you even LEARNED wall of force or any of these spells?"
The player would need to have IQ less than my shoe size for not picking the strongest spells in the game if they are going to play PvP. Wall of force is hands down best control spell in the game because it automatically succeeds without any saving throws.

"watch the video and see for yourself. "
All I see some guy throwing lucky rolls against people who don't know how to optimize their characters.

"jeremy crawford explicity states that you can't target spells through wall of force as it "blocks line of sight" sight = spells that rely on seeing a creature."
You know what is ironic here... With that reasoning you can't teleport either since you require line of sight where you teleport with misty step or shadow teleportation.

with teleports, you're not casting a spell on something that has total cover. I don't make the rules.
All of these statements you make, revolve around you winning initiative. And while you are channeling your wall of force on the monk, someone else is going to stab you in the face. This is all "lucky initiative roll" on your part. By a lot.

[KeepCleaving]

Messaggio originale di Pumis:

Messaggio originale di KeepCleaving:

with teleports, you're not casting a spell on something that has total cover. I don't make the rules.
All of these statements you make, revolve around you winning initiative. And while you are channeling your wall of force on the monk, someone else is going to stab you in the face. This is all "lucky initiative roll" on your part. By a lot.

"with teleports, you're not casting a spell on something that has total cover. I don't make the rules."
You don't make attack rolls to someone with total cover. Also you're wrong
https://5e.tools/quickreference.html#bookref-quick,3,cover
Wall of force just gives you cover from attacks but it doesn't block the vision.

But how would you deal with monk while fighting alone against:
https://5e.tools/bestiary.html#adult%20red%20dragon_mm
You think you can solo it? Because this is the thing wizard can turn into and look at that delicious con saving throw and flight speed ;)

"All of these statements you make, revolve around you winning initiative."
War wizard get's bonus to initiative on basis of their int.
Plus you're assuming that you can shutdown wizard by winning the initiative.

"someone else is going to stab you in the face."
He can literally trap your whole team behind while other caster cast cloudkill spell that will kill you all while being trapped behind the wall of force... Fun fact... This is actually well known combo.

Edit: or want to know something even more hiliarous?
BLoody wish spell which can do anything.
https://5e.tools/spells.html#wish_phb
And use that to cast:
https://5e.tools/spells.html#simulacrum_phb

Now there are two wizards

according to sage advice, wall of force blocks all spells from targeting any creature. It blocks line of sight completely with total cover. Take it up with Jeremy Crawford. linking the spell description isn't going to win this case for you.

You're not going to do any spell casting if a monk shuts you down with just 1 stunning strike upon winning initiative. You don't even know if you will shut down the monk with initiative. He could be hidden, doing his "omg Im a wizzarrrd I can prep before the match" bs too.
Fact is, it happened, Beu the monk was mvp. Deal with it. She wasn't using anything that the whole community couldn't use as a monk.