Final shape raid discussion and what I'm worried about.

[Bobermeister]

So, we all know Bungie is trying real hard to make it very easy and accessible to join or return to the game at the launch of the final shape. In the raid we will most likely face the witness and his disciples, which means lore wise this is the toughest and biggest battle we have EVER had in the history of this game, even foes like Rhulk and Oryx don’t even come close to the witness and are all pawns in his plan. I’m worried about Bungie making the raid another entry level raid like root of nightmares or vault of glass since they are probably expecting a lot of new and returning players in the finals shape, probably more than any other dlc they have ever released. I feel like if the raid (and especially the fight against the witness) is not as hard or even harder than Riven and or Oryx, it will feel very underwhelming. I’m all for entry level raids existing, but I don’t think this is the time for one and I certainly hope they don’t make it an entry level raid. I feel like the difficulty of a raid should reflect the lore and how powerful the foes are, that’s why I was left with a feeling of “that’s it?” after facing off against Nezarec in the root of nightmares raid. Another direction they could go is for us to fight the witness in the story, but just like before it will feel very underwhelming to fight the biggest threat we have ever seen in this game as a story boss that you can easily solo, and make the raid setup for Destiny’s next saga and or Destiny 3. The last direction I could see Bungie going is that they just let the witness escape or he ends himself somehow and the raid is not even connected to the story in any way (like what they did with the launch of shadowkeep and garden of salvation), but again, this will feel underwhelming.

What are your guys’ thoughts what will happen with the raid? What are you excited for? What do you want it to be?

I certainly hope it will be another massive raid like last wish with more difficulty and complexity, but knowing Bungie, it will probably be another 4 encounter raid with a jumping puzzle and a only 1 or 2 mechanics.

EDIT: Another reason why I see Bungie making it an entry level raid is because they want all the new and returning players to be able to do it and experience the final battle of this saga.

[Kylito]

I'd imagine, difficulty wise, on par with Crota's, because people liked that contest mode from what I heard.

Reducing barrier to entry is about the campaign and new content, contest raids are made for a VERY specific audience.

[Bobermeister]

Originally posted by Kylito:

I'd imagine, difficulty wise, on par with Crota's, because people liked that contest mode from what I heard.

Reducing barrier to entry is about the campaign and new content, contest raids are made for a VERY specific audience.

Not talking contest only, talking about the raid as a whole. We can probably all agree that root of nightmare for example is laughably easy compared to something like kings fall, even without contest mode.

[Mez Koo]

I doubt, it. They heard the root of nightmares feedback loud and clear and know the importance of this raid and honestly I kind of hope that only a handful of the most try hard and sweaty teams make it through the first day.

Also maybe this was in that wall of text but we know that the final campaign mission is locked behind the world first completion of the raid so it is probably a safe bet that the raid will only achieve the goal of "weakening" the witness enough to finally be confronted in a true manner in the last campaign mission so it really doesn't need to be accessible to finish the story just like every other instance where a canonical team of guardians completed a major story beat without you.

[Azure]

I dislike raids and i dislike important story being locked in raids even more so if its easy then good

[Kylito]

Originally posted by Azure:

I dislike raids and i dislike important story being locked in raids even more so if its easy then good

They already said it's not gonna be locked behind a raid. They know if they make people have to do a raid there will be hordes of crybabies sad they have to leave their safe space.

[Gally]

in one of the dev videos i forget which, they said they didn't want val caour to be the hardest raid boss ever in destiny when talking about how the witness was gonna be a raid boss. so i think its safe to say it'll b pretty tough

[N33MA]

Joe Blackhurn already said that it wouldn't be acceptable for the witness to be easier than val caour, so I'd imagine that if they're designing around that bar the raid will probably be really hard.

[WhiteKitt]

im gonna burn down the tower if i don't get cool skim board areas like the moon or a new planet with creaters to use as half pipes and half pipes to use as half-pipes

also ich want the desert pyramid map back

i want a bigger vault

i want simpler casual noob raids

i want to spend 3 exo codes plus 5 prisms and 100 shards on a fancy high raid weapon

and much more and strawberry yoghurt and my own appartment in the tower bc i played this game for long enough to deserve this "cosmetic perk" ( my own unit at the tower with nice view and access to vault and ammo recharge )

*listen to this champ

[Mez Koo]

Originally posted by fbx2 Ravenclan.EU :

i want simpler casual noob raids

5 out of the 8 are already simple, actually try them before saying there aren't casual raids.

Root of Nightmares
Crota's End
Vow of the Disciple
King's Fall
Deepstone Crypt

[Horn]

Originally posted by N33MA:

Joe Blackhurn already said that it wouldn't be acceptable for the witness to be easier than val caour, so I'd imagine that if they're designing around that bar the raid will probably be really hard.

Honestly, even if they make this raid the hardest raid in the history of the series, it could still be bad. RoN's problem wasn't that it was easy after all, it was that it was boring, it required almost no communication between players, aside from the third encounter which is expectedly considered by many to be the best (in my opinion the only good one) in the raid. Raid felt like it was made by completely different people, though let's be honest, you could say that about all of Lightfall.

That's what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid that there are simply no people left in the studio who know how to make a good and interesting raid. I'm afraid it will be just RoN 2.0, but now there will be more enemies, Witness will hit harder and disable your abilities, he will have more HP, but as for the encounter itself, there will still be two people just running around the arena without communicating with each other, and the other 4 players will just kill mobs.

[Burgundy_β]

Curb your elitism while GTA Online, No Mans Sky and hand holding Forza Horizon exist.

sorry, i'm materialistic jade ox zodiac. i want better outfit than Assassins Creed or Halo, killing more enemies than Crysis and Deus Ex.

[Bobermeister]

Originally posted by Horn:

Originally posted by N33MA:

Joe Blackhurn already said that it wouldn't be acceptable for the witness to be easier than val caour, so I'd imagine that if they're designing around that bar the raid will probably be really hard.

Honestly, even if they make this raid the hardest raid in the history of the series, it could still be bad. RoN's problem wasn't that it was easy after all, it was that it was boring, it required almost no communication between players, aside from the third encounter which is expectedly considered by many to be the best (in my opinion the only good one) in the raid. Raid felt like it was made by completely different people, though let's be honest, you could say that about all of Lightfall.

That's what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid that there are simply no people left in the studio who know how to make a good and interesting raid. I'm afraid it will be just RoN 2.0, but now there will be more enemies, Witness will hit harder and disable your abilities, he will have more HP, but as for the encounter itself, there will still be two people just running around the arena without communicating with each other, and the other 4 players will just kill mobs.

This is also true ofcourse, I want the raid to be good ofcourse, but it not being a pushover is the most important for me I'd say. Bringing down (or weakening) the witness shouldn't be easy.

[Bobermeister]

Originally posted by Mez Koo:

Originally posted by fbx2 Ravenclan.EU :

i want simpler casual noob raids

5 out of the 8 are already simple, actually try them before saying there aren't casual raids.

Root of Nightmares
Crota's End
Vow of the Disciple
King's Fall
Deepstone Crypt

I don't agree with vow and king's fall (they are on the easier side, but I wouldn't say they are beginner raids, and I think you forgot VoG lmao.

[N33MA]

Originally posted by Horn:

Originally posted by N33MA:

Joe Blackhurn already said that it wouldn't be acceptable for the witness to be easier than val caour, so I'd imagine that if they're designing around that bar the raid will probably be really hard.

Honestly, even if they make this raid the hardest raid in the history of the series, it could still be bad. RoN's problem wasn't that it was easy after all, it was that it was boring, it required almost no communication between players, aside from the third encounter which is expectedly considered by many to be the best (in my opinion the only good one) in the raid. Raid felt like it was made by completely different people, though let's be honest, you could say that about all of Lightfall.

That's what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid that there are simply no people left in the studio who know how to make a good and interesting raid. I'm afraid it will be just RoN 2.0, but now there will be more enemies, Witness will hit harder and disable your abilities, he will have more HP, but as for the encounter itself, there will still be two people just running around the arena without communicating with each other, and the other 4 players will just kill mobs.

I mean those same people presumably then went on to the Crota's End reprisal which was significantly harder and more mechanically complex. The prime issue with RoN is that the mechanics can all be done by 2 people for the entire raid, so it you aren't those 2 people the raid becomes incredibly boring. Even if you were those 2 people, the same mechanic is repeated for 3/4 encounters so it get boring either way.

[ZeroTsu02]

reee muh challenege y gaem ez nub me want supah hard 1% raid pls bungo